AR vs boltgun

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Rittmeister

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I've got a Rock River Elite Operator II. A buddy bought the carbine version and I had to have my own, but I bought the mid-length. I ditched the heavy half-quad handguard for a Ranier Arms free-float and then ruined it by putting a Burris MTAC with PEPR mount on.

I sighted it in a while ago and am very happy with the accuracy. What I found today at a range visit was that I feel it's too heavy for me to shoot as accurately as I'd like from the offhand.

Today was a very informal plinking shoot, with targets out to 100 yards. I found that I could hit soda cans and other "smaller" items out to the maximum distance much more easily with my other AR (which has a mil-spec trigger, iron sights, and non-free-float hand guard) simply because it's lighter and I can hold it on target more steadily. When I hold the RRA, I get a lot of "swimming"/movement while looking through the scope no matter how hard I concentrate on the basics. From a rest, no problem.

So I'm faced with a dilemma. I'm at a point in life where I don't get to shoot rifle more than a few times a year, and I'd like to enjoy it as much as possible. I've considered getting a lighter-profile barrel for the RRA, or even have the factory barrel turned down and lightened; much of the weight is in the heavy barrel.

However, I'm now considering getting rid of the Burris in favor of a more powerful scope, adding a bipod, and making it a dedicated "long-range" AR.

BUT - this begs the question (and finally the point of my post) - would it make more sense to sell off the gun entirely (with or without the Burris MTAC) and then purchase a bolt-action 5.56 rifle with a decent scope? I could theoretically obtain a higher level of accuracy that way, while still retaining my "fun" AR.

I realize that some will tell me to go to the gym. Probably a good idea but for the purposes of this discussion let's pretend I can't ;)

NB - I have done NO research vis-a-vis what my AR would be worth or what boltgun to buy or what I might expect to spend. I'm just curious what folks might have to say.
 
I will not suggest the gym.

I will suggest a 9 pound air-rifle you can practice with every day in the garage or basement.

BTW: A more powerful scope will only magnify the tremors & wobbles and make it worse.

rc
 
something to consider.... most of the AR15s you see on the line at camp perry, where competitors are shooting standing at a 3" x ring 200 yards away, have as many lead weights inside the stock and forearm as they can stuff in there. some even put lead in their magazines. the weight helps most people standing. it dampens the movement.

now, lighter weight guns may seem easier to use if you a) are trying to shoot faster, b) are muscling the gun instead of getting your natural point of aim with bone support, or c) have bad balance with too much weight forward of your support hand, instead of back in the butt.


that said, i enjoy PRS style precision shooting with a 16-18 lb bolt gun, but i like shooting a lightweight carbine because i can move it faster.
 
My AR sits in my safe while the CZ 5.56 bolt gets a trip to the range every time. I got tired of pulling the trigger repeatedly and watching my ammo supply dwindle faster than I liked. This one makes me slow down and think about my shots.
 
Like RC said, increasing the magnification is only going to amplify the "swimming" your dealing with.

And making the rifle lighter without getting it balanced properly, is also going to cause more problems keeping it steady.

Me personally, I don't care much for AR's, or any AL-ing rifle for that matter. The only rifle other than a bolt gun that flips my switch, is an old classic MG, a BAR for example. But even then, the fun is short lived, as is the ammo supply. I'll take a good bolt gun any day over an AR. And I can shoot all day long, and still not burn through hundreds of rounds.

GS
 
Ritt
I feel it's too heavy for me to shoot as accurately as I'd like from the offhand
Click to expand...
If its to heavy for your stile of shooting make it lighter. The beauty of the AR. Me, my match AR and my practice AR weigh in at just under 15 lbs.
The whole point of a heavy gun like that is to stabilize it in off hand. But you have to let the gun balance on your off hand and lay across your chest.
If you try to hold the gun like the three gun guys you see on TV you are gonna have problems. If your style is shooting with your off hand way out
on the hand guard instead of under the guns balance point you probably should be looking at a lightweight upper.
 
The older i get the lighter i make my AR's however i leave the tiny group shooting to my AR's and Scout bolt action that are set up for stationary target/varmint shooting. I still have my fun with the steel plates and soda cans and go through tons of ammo, after all that is why i am there --- to have fun. Ammo is easily replaceable as are barrels should you ever shoot enough to wear one to the point of needing replacement ( a thirty minute job usually). I just found a 14.75" super lightweight melonite coated 1/7 barrel that made the neatest carbine, and fun to shoot because you can move so quickly ( yes i permanetly attached a DD flash hider). So for me " lighter is righter" :)
 
First, I suspect your Rock River is just unbalanced. As stated earlier, there's a reason why Highpower shooters put weights in the hand guards and butt stocks of their Service Rifles, and it's not 100% just adding weight. My personal match rifle probably runs between 12-13 pounds but balances oh-so nicely over the delta ring when shooting offhand.

Second, another part of your swimming sensation is scope magnification. Every heart beat and muscle tremor is more visible than when looking down unmagnified iron sights.

Third, set the rifle up for how you want to use it. I have two ARs, my industrial-strength Armalite Service Rifle for match shooting, and a much lighter, shorter, handier Colt 6920 16" carbine. The Service Rifle is a very specialized piece of equipment, the Colt is more of a general-purpose knock-around rifle. When I want to plink offhand at soda cans, clay birds, paper plates, steel targets or run through a couple of 30-round magazines in a hurry, the Colt definitely gets the nod. But if the goal is to make small groups far away from more stable positions, the Armalite is the tool for the job.
 
To be clear - those of you mentioning more motion with a higher-magnification scope: I know this. It wouldn't be my first foray into that arena.

I mentioned a bipod (I think) above, but to be clear: if I went to a higher-power scope on the Rock River it would also become a rifle whose primary use would be from a bipod or other rest. In other words: stationary, supported shooting.

I'm interested by the comments on balance and might consider weighting the stock as the gun is front-heavy, but for the purposes of this discussion I am more interested in opinions between scoping this AR or going to a bolt-gun as a dedicated precision platform.
 
In my opinion, a bolt gun is easier to shoot accurately and easier to reload for. An AR can be just as accurate but in my experience are a little more finicky to get there. If both are 5.56 rifles the only real benefit to a bolt action is the ability to load longer than the AR15 magazine allows.
 
As mentioned counter balancing can make a really big difference. You can add an A2 stock, there's a cavity in there that is easy to fill with something heavy. Lead shot in a ziploc does the trick. This is an easy and cheap thing to do before jumping in to something a lot more expensive.
 
it seems obvious but may need to be stated: more magnification does not create more motion. it only lets you see it. i.e. the motion is there already, but with iron sites or a red dot, you can't tell.

so if that wiggle or motion is bothering you, that's a mental error. magnifying it and learning to shoot when the sights are pointed somewhere on the target (they don't have to be in the exact center and steady) is very good training
 
I would just sell it, especially if I was only going to shoot a gun a few times a year. I shoot once or twice a week, and if I wasn't going to shoot something at LEAST once a month, I wouldn't buy it in the first place. But that's just how I am
 
Seems like you have a lightweight AR already. Id be inclined to get a lightweight bolt action.
 
BUT - this begs the question (and finally the point of my post) - would it make more sense to sell off the gun entirely (with or without the Burris MTAC) and then purchase a bolt-action 5.56 rifle with a decent scope? I could theoretically obtain a higher level of accuracy that way, while still retaining my "fun" AR.
Click to expand...

Marine Corps handed me an M14. Damn, that rifle was heavy, for my 130 Lb carcass anyway. I wasn't allowed to sell it and buy a lighter rifle. Read Taliv's post #3.

My advice is simple, practice, practice and practice more. Work with the rifle and develop good shooting skills and habits. It's all about breathing control. holding and squeezing. It's all about practice and practice till it hurts and then a little more.

Ron
 
Keep the rifle and get a 16" Scout profile 6.8 spc barrel from ARPerformance, you'll get a do-it-all caliber and the lighter barrel will balance the gun alot better. ARPerformance has them in stock for $185, do it, you won't regret it. 5.56 is for pansies, cowboy up.
I don't have a scope on my 6.8 AR's, just Aimpoint CompC3/PRO and if you can see it you can hit it.
 
Scope the RR and see if you like shooting it supported. If it's good to go, then great.

If you don't like it, sell it and get the bolt gun. But keep the scope to put it on the bolt gun.
 
Why don't you just try a good red dot on that AR? Dot sights are awesome. Over the years I have developed astigmatism in my right eye and it's harder for me to focus through the rear iron sights. I have an Aimpoint that I adjust so I can see through the dot and see the target. It's amazing how well I can shoot again without a scope.:)
 
My Sig is 12# naked you add bi-pod, scope and 20 rnd mag its heavy but its rock solid to hold and shoot, But definitely to much for humping the Mtn's and hunting with but for long range and engaging multiple targets it is awesome, But for my personnel hunting and go to rifle I still like a bolt rifle and my new Savage 10 FCP-SR is great the Sig and Savage are 308, My Ar15 is my light weight and short range rifle, The Sig 716 DMR is a serious rifle, But I would want to be set up stable with it, Not carry it to far!
 
Rittmeister;

I'm with Chris in VA, get a CZ527 in .223/NATO, it's rated for either. They can be be quite accurate, and are an excellent walking varminter. Mine wears an older Nikon Monarch 3.3-10X A/O mil-dot in Talley rings and I'm not looking to change a thing. It's a 1:12 twist gun and that's also exactly what I want. Heavier bullet needs get a bigger bore gun in my case. The thing will put 50 grain Sierra Blitzkings into small-small holes at 100 yards. That's from a bench, but carrying it in the field is a joy and using it there is also.

900F
 
I believe the PEPR mount sets at height they call "absolute co-witness" which means the scope crosshair is roughly the same height as the front sight. Through some trick of light that I don't know how to explain, the eye can still see the target. In reality, the target is blocked preventing the shooter from being able to center the crosshair on the target. The crosshair swims from side to side. This is the real reason you're able to easily hit pop cans with your iron sighted AR while the scoped rifle gives you fits
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=783158&page=2
 
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