AR Zero issue

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gotigers

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Rifle specs: 18", rifle gas, 1:8, NATO chamber, Titan brake, Burris PEPR mount, Weaver Classic 1-3x, MI SS-12 forend.

Ammo: 55gr Hornady steel match and AE223. I shot about 150 rounds in groups of 5 and 10.

Problem: If i zero it at 50 yards, at 200 it is 6-8" high. If i zero at 200 it is 3" low at 50 yards.

The groups were fairly tight and consistent.

First i am going to remove the scope and mount then zero with irons. If it zeros 50/200 normally, then i can iliminate the barrel as the issue.

Any other ideas?
 
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Problem: If i zero it at 50 yards, at 200 it is 6-8" high. If i zero at 200 it is 4" low at 50 yards.
Are you using the military 25 meter zero target? Point of aim and point of impact should be different on these, but they are helpful to use.
The groups were fairly tight and consitent.
If your groups are tight, and if the above is correct; all of your issues are in elevation; correct?
I am suspecting the PEPR mount is over tourqued or bad, or the barrel is not seated properly.
PEPR mounts can be an issue, but if it is the PEPR, then your groups might very well open up in both directions. As you stated earlier, you have tight groups, but are off in elevation.
First i am going to remove the scope and mount then zero with irons.
I highly highly reccomend this as your first action. With the PEPR off you can take a look at it and see what you have going on and if it is an issue with the mount.
If it zeros 50/200 normally, then i can iliminate the barrel as the issue.
I have had a barrel on a Sig 556 Swat Patrol that was mounted inccorectly. It was so wildly off that at wouldnt stay on paper and it drove me nuts for an hour or so. If you have an issue like this, usually the problem will be off in both elevation and azimuth, not just in azimuth. In other words when the barrel is canted it is usually off center in more than one single direction. You can check this easily if you have a laser boresighter and you can do it at home and save some ammo.
Any other ideas?
Always start with one issue at a time, otherwise someone will find you in a straight jacket, mumbling to yourself at the mercy of Nurse Ratchet.
1)Start with your irons. (Do the laser boresighter if you like, just to eliminate any doubt about your barrel, but I doubt it is the issue. You just need to see that you aren't wildly off center here.) Get the military 25 meter zero target on line and make about 5 copies. Read the instructions and keep a copy by your rifle as you zero.
2) As you zero only move in one direction at a time. Elevation first and Azimuth second is the way I do it.
3) Note that as you fire your point of aim and point of impact will be different.This is cool, because it turns your 25 meter zero in to a 100 meter zero.
4) Once you get this right your irons are zeroed and you can work your glass.
Check your rig, everything Square? are the screws on your rings tight and do you have blue locktite on them? Are the QD released at the appropriate setting/tension to hold zero,..do they wiggle?
5) Lets not mess around now, fire three rounds at 50 meters through your glass and get the azimuth adjustments right then go ahead and take it out to 100 meters.
6) Once again move azimuth first if necassary, then do elevation adjustments. I like my zero on an M4 to be two inches high at 100 meters but YMMV, tweek it in at 100 and you should be fine.

My PEPR mount gave me a bit of a problem finding a tension adjustment it liked, once it was in though, it was fine. My big issue was craning my neck to get the hold I needed to get high enough on the glass, but thats for another day.
Good Luck
 
This is a flattop, right? And not a PEPR mounted on top of a carry handle?
 
flattop. All error was in elevation not windage. I think the PEPR is canted. I'll see once i get irons on it.
 
Barrel

I own a few DPMS's and have worked on a few more and have found that it is common to have an over torqued barrel, about one in four have been over torqued which, in turn, caused some strange groups. "Caution" your barrel maybe very tight and hard to get off. They have a knuckle head some where in their shop that likes to use loctite on barrel nuts.
 
Only the barrel is DPMS. I built the AR. The barrel was torqured to just over 30lb-ft. I don't use loctite on barrel nuts. Molly grease only on my barrel nuts.
 
The Burris P.E.P.R. is designed for 2.6" centerline to centerline similar to A2 height.

That is what i think the problem is. I feel the mount is canted up or down slightly. Enough to throw the elevation off.
 
The only way for a rifle to hit 4" low at 50, and be on at 200, is if the scope is mounted more than 4" above the bore. A 50 yard zero with a scope mounted 4" or 5" above the bore could hit 6" or 8" high at 200. The cant of the mount can't do it if the scope is at the normal height.
So, if the center of the scope is 2.5" or so above the bore, I got no ideas.
 
I know, i didnt measure it. It was probably closer to 3 inches. I just thru a number out there.

The scope is at 2.5-2.6 above bore center. However, it might be canted forward or back.
 
Were you shooting from exactly the same position? Changing from a bench to prone or vice versa is the only way I can think to make sense of a 200y zero hitting even 2" low at 50y.

Are you sure it wasn't 200y/50ft or something? You scope isn't even 3" high, so there should be no way to be hitting that low.

Are you changing any other variables between 50y and 200y? Scope magnification, position, day of the week?
 
Zero at 100 yards and learn your trajectory. I doubt if it will be off far enough to matter at 50 or 200 with a 100 yard zero.
 
Did you verify the distance you were shooting at with a laser?

If so, and you are grouping fine, I would just conclude that is how the rifle shoots with that load, record the data, and carry on!
 
poa = poi at 50 YARDS(near zero) and 200 METERS(far zero). Try 219 yards.

With a 50 YARD near zero you should be CLOSE to a 200 METER far zero. 200 meters is a little farther out than 200 yards(200 yards = 182 meters). The 50y 200m zero only works if the mechanical offset and velocity are correct. Check to see if your sight is about 2.6" above the bore. 6"-8" seems like a lot of drop between 200 and 219 yards. I don't think your optic is canted, poa is what it is. Hope this helps.
 
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I've been using the 50/200 Improved battlesight zero for a few years. It has worked great.

I took the AR out today with a set of Magpul MBUS and no scope and i only used AE223. About 200 rounds.

I roughly zeroed at 50, then confirmed to 200. Then re-zeroed at 200, then confirmed at 50 and 100. Groups at 200, expcept for a couple of flyers that were my fault, were well inside the 6", more like 5". The groups at 50 were 1.5-2" and fairly centered. The groups at 100 were 2-3 inches and about 1.5-2" high. The range i used today was sheltered with trees own both sides. There was no wind, so windage being good.

Considering the MBUS sights are not precision irons and i really didn't have a good bag set up, i felt real good about the groups.
 
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Have you actually measured exactly how high the scope sits above the bore?
 
2.6", however with tolerance from measuring, it could be of front to back quite a bit.
 
Is your far zero 200 meters or 200 yards?
The 50/200 IBZ is 50 yards and 200 meters. If you are using yards you are off far zero by 19 yards, too close. Your optic is canted, all open sights and optics are. They have to be, unless the sights are below the bore. The mechanical offset/angle of the sights or optic to the bore is adjusted to match the trajectory of a bullet.

Point of aim is the same for near zero as it is for the far zero. That doesn't mean your far zero will be at 200 meters. Point of impact will only match point of aim if the offset/angle and trajectory are correct. If you change the trajectory the far zero will not match. Faster rounds have a further far zero than slower rounds, if weight and bc are the same. Try 219 yards and a slower round. The best thing to do is learn the trajectory and make some windage cards for that round.
 
Correct. Using yards at 50y i should be a little low if i sighted in at 200 yards. Using the MBUS sights, i can't get that precise. I think the results from today show the rifle is fine.

When i used the scope, zeroed at 200y, the 50y was much lower than it should have been. A couple inches vs the .25"-.5" low it should have been. When it was zeroed at 50y it should have been 1.25+/- high. It was 6-8" high.

I feel i have eliminated the rifle as the problem. It shot real good today.

Does anyone know the BC of AE223 bullets?
 
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...If i zero it at 50 yards, at 200 it is 6-8" high. If i zero at 200 it is 3" low at 50 yards...

If there is a cant (or slope) on your PEPR, it won't change the trajectory of the bullet.

It is normal for the AR, with it's high sight plane, to shoot low at close range. If you raise your sight to hit dead on at 50 yards, it will shoot pretty high down range.

Here's a thread that will help you understand what is going on
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=65679
 
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If the scope tilts front to back it will effect POI. If the scope is tilted up or down, it will change elevation POI for the other point at which the bullet crosses line of sight. No different than someone using the wrong FSB, F or non-F marked. It will have a different vertical POI.

2 identical rifles. One has a mount that is correct. The other is tilted. Both sight in at 50y. They will have different points at which the bullet crosses the line of sight on the way down.

I am aware that an AR shoots low at close range due to height over bore. I've had plenty of penalties for hitting the top no shoots that are withing 15 yards.

I also understand trajectory.

Thanks for everyones advice.
 
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