Varminterror
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AR10 realistic accuracy goal
- Thread starter irishlad
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I honestly don't know for sure... I'd like to say "lock time", but I'm pretty sure the bullet was out of the barrel before the bcg started moving. Man did the groups ever tighten up when I dialed the gas down though. Mine was over gassed with a fixed gas block(yours may not be), to the point of absolutely shredding the brass on PPU M80 loads, and I couldn't get much past start loads before it started shredding the brass on my handloads as well. After the agb, this thing now just marks up brass towards the top end of load data, and I can load pretty much throughout the .308 load data.
Mine is a 20", and is pretty much for punching paper and shooting pigs from a blind. It's definitely too heavy to Walk around with! I could never get varget to shoot all that well, but it loves imr4064. With 150's-175's it seems to love AR Comp, N140(150's-168's), N150(168's&175's), and IMR4064.
Varminterror
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citizenconn
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I don't have any experience with the components they use on the SFAR, particularly the barrel. But I routinely shoot 8-10 round groups with my rounds all touching on the .243 Win, 6.5 CR, and .308 Win large frame ARs I put together. These are all direct impingement gas systems.
This is with barrels ranging from 16-24", lowers with either drop in single stage or double stage triggers, using a rear bag and with either a good bipod or front bag.
Not to preach at you, but for most of the people I train in long range shooting, their ability to consistently hit targets is limited by their own abilities rather than the capabilities of the rifle. Not all rifles are equal, but the Ruger rifles I have shot have all been pretty accurate, moreso than some rifles costing 3-4 times more. I spend most of my training time teaching shooters to be consistent in their shooting fundamentals. Once you zero the shooter, as I call it, then getting them to shoot small groups and hit consistently out to 700-800 yards with a .308 Win follows pretty easily. Additional ballistic training is often required for them to consistently make hits from 800-1200 yards with a .308 Win.
The same goes for teaching them to shoot small groups at 100 yards. Once they have good shooting fundamental, shooting 1 moa is pretty easy to obtain consistently. But shooting .5 moa and smaller consistently is exponentially harder but definitely achievable. I have seen these shooters use Ruger Precision and Ruger American rifles that were able learn to shoot .5 moa and smaller groups if they have good shooting fundamentals. I see no reason why the SFAR would not be as capable if you can do your part. Good luck with it.
I am intrigued by the SFAR and might end up getting one myself. I probably have 80-90 ARs, 25-30 of those being large frame ARs. Only one of those is a factory built gun. The SFAR may end up being my 2nd factory built AR.
This is with barrels ranging from 16-24", lowers with either drop in single stage or double stage triggers, using a rear bag and with either a good bipod or front bag.
Not to preach at you, but for most of the people I train in long range shooting, their ability to consistently hit targets is limited by their own abilities rather than the capabilities of the rifle. Not all rifles are equal, but the Ruger rifles I have shot have all been pretty accurate, moreso than some rifles costing 3-4 times more. I spend most of my training time teaching shooters to be consistent in their shooting fundamentals. Once you zero the shooter, as I call it, then getting them to shoot small groups and hit consistently out to 700-800 yards with a .308 Win follows pretty easily. Additional ballistic training is often required for them to consistently make hits from 800-1200 yards with a .308 Win.
The same goes for teaching them to shoot small groups at 100 yards. Once they have good shooting fundamental, shooting 1 moa is pretty easy to obtain consistently. But shooting .5 moa and smaller consistently is exponentially harder but definitely achievable. I have seen these shooters use Ruger Precision and Ruger American rifles that were able learn to shoot .5 moa and smaller groups if they have good shooting fundamentals. I see no reason why the SFAR would not be as capable if you can do your part. Good luck with it.
I am intrigued by the SFAR and might end up getting one myself. I probably have 80-90 ARs, 25-30 of those being large frame ARs. Only one of those is a factory built gun. The SFAR may end up being my 2nd factory built AR.
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Well then, my answer is "lock time" it sure runs great with the gas dialed down. I understand the slight over gassing on most AR barrels. Side note, the 3 large frame AR's I've been around have all been excessively over gassed, and have been much more reliable and accurate with the gas dialed down.
Varminterror
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What kind of issues do you need to fix/change to achieve accuracy under 1moa?
I suspect you already have a conclusion about IALoder's issues. Care to share?
Yes, all were 20" with rifle length gas, all different barrel makers. Happened with Hornady American Whitetail, Win Super X, PPU and Fed M80, and both 168 & 175 Fed GMM. All shoot great (accurate and reliable) after dialing the gas down with factory and handloads.
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Varminterror
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It’s not cold fusion or string theory - it’s actually pretty simple on the front end to put together a rifle and ammo that wants to shoot small:
1) Good ammo - we can’t expect rot gut whiskey to go down as smoothly as a 12yr old single malt.
2) Good barrel - we can’t expect sewer pipes to shoot small. But it doesn’t take much to improve over a $75 rack chromie.
Everything else is really just assurance to avoid screwing up what the barrel and bullet are trying to do:
• Good trigger with properly matched pull weight to rifle weight. We can’t have a lot of movement to the trigger with a long trigger cycle time and variable forces (direction and magnitude) during the cycle, and we can’t have a lot of trigger resistance which causes movement in the entire rifle instead of just the shoe. An 8lb trigger in a 7lb rifle is a recipe for movement during the trigger stroke.
• Free floating barrel - if our support is pushing or pulling on the barrel, it introduces variability from one shot to the next, and can change the tune we strive to establish in load development. Float it, and eliminate that opportunity.
• Secure the barrel consistently in the upper. Whether that’s bedding, shimming, or thermal fitting, if the only supporting surface aligning the barrel in the receiver is the ~1mm thick barrel flange being clamped between the barrel nut and end of the receiver mortise, we’re not properly supporting our barrel.
• Good sights/scope aligned with the targets to be used at the distances being fired. If you’re shooting 6ft paper targets with calibrated 36” aiming black at 600 yards, your demand for sighting system is very different than someone shooting 1.5” eggs at 200.
• Stock set up to let the shooter get comfortably and properly aligned to their sighting system
The rest is technique. Giving the rifle sufficient support to let it do what it wants to do (shoot small) without inducing too much force to elicit errant movements during the trigger cycle (pushing it around while it tries to shoot small), and holding hard enough to reliably break on target within your wobble zone (telling it consistently where to send bullets so the small group is a small group, clustered in the right place).
AGB’s don’t affect accuracy directly. But they CAN affect tune. If someone is developing handloads using proven methods, even with a standard gas block, they’ll have their load in tune with the barrel. Change the block and you change barrel harmonics, just like adding a barrel tuner, a suppressor, or a barrel mounted Chronograph. If a rifle doesn’t care for certain factory ammo, it sometimes does give us a little control over tuning to use an AGB. But AGB’s really aren’t on a list of “must haves to build a sub-MOA AR”. I’d venture the most accurate AR’s in the country are actually all built with fixed blocks, since their sport requires it. Bullets are already more than halfway down the barrel before they hit gas ports, so primary ignition is complete, long over, and we’re in a simple expansion phase - the bullet has already engaged the rifling, and any yaw or axial misalignment on the bullet, or lack thereof, is already fully established… it’s on its way, doing what it’s gonna do. The bullet doesn’t touch any part of the block, so all it is really doing is throttling how much gas is allowed to vent BEHIND the bullet. If we have a relatively poorly built system with a lot of movement, then maybe we unlock a little early and the carrier starts moving the rifle/upper before the bullet is clear (and the carrier DOES start moving before the bullet is clear), then we do have EXTRA movement from overgassing, but we ALWAYS have carrier movement during dwell time, so it’s not some vs. none, it’s just more vs. less.
I’ve built and rebuilt over 600 sub-MOA AR uppers. Less than half of them have had AGB’s, maybe less than 1/3. I do recommend AGB’s highly, especially for any atypical cartridge or barrel & gas system length combos - all but 2 of my personal AR’s have AGB’s. But their value is in other aspects of function, not in precision, because there really isn’t a correlation, outside the occasional coincidence that a barrel doesn’t like factory ammo (which are generally a well tuned “generic load”) and swapping the mass around and shifting gas helps a little to nudge harmonics to our favor when we’re not actually doing any tuning of our loads.
Varminterror
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I can keep constant 1/2” groups with my rifle. but, if you reload for it, I found early that I couldn’t push it hard. I shot 175gr Nosler custom comps and 175gr smk. That’s about all I shot through mine. And pushing to hard would cause erratic groups. Mines a 18”. I had a 3-15 pst gen 2 on it at the time. Since getting my loads down I went to a 1-6pst gen 2. I can shoot mine to 600m fairly easy. It’s a black hole weaponry barrel. Adjustable gas. I’ve got the Elfman es trigger in line. It’s a 2.5lb. It’s the right one in the pic. The middle is a 14.7”. I enjoy that one more these the 18”. It’s a Wilson combat ranger barrel. Both of mine are built on psa gen 3 reciever sets
adcoch1
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A friend recently put together an AR-10 with a PSA upper, which grouped a 1.24" 5 shot group during sight in at 100. He also could hit a 12" gong at 300 with little effort. But with different ammo the group was 3moa. So, as always, find the ammo the gun likes. I personally expect 1.5 moa for initial use, and then 1 moa for any decent ar. Haven't went high end with a barrel yet, cause I usually hit my 1 moa needs with on sale barrels.
Varminterror
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I built most of my rifles on Shilen and Krieger barrels until about 2015 when I tried a couple BHW barrels for their lower prices, after being pointed towards them by a couple of other shooter/builders. I’m creeping up on 50 of their barrels since then, and all of them have shot well, cleaned easy, and were FAST for their length. Their prices went up a LOT in the last few years, so I’ve kinda changed directions again for “affordable precision” builds, but BHW makes good barrels.
OP
OP
You might want to start your own thread. My OP was just looking for opinions on what to expect out of that particular build. Thanks
OP
OP
Both triggers showed up Friday. Put the LRT in my AR10 and the FCD in my grandson's AR15. Both feel waaay better than the Mil-Spec triggers they replaced. Super windy today, so have to wait till another day to see how accuracy is with them.
InTheSwamp
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I was tired of chasing bug hole groups with my Savage build, and traded for a really nice AR-10. Knowing it wouldn’t shoot 1 hole, 5rd groups,I could just have fun shooting! So First time out with this rifle, I just popped in some of my home rolled 175gr Matchking ammo left over from my Savage, and it shot damn near as good! It would easily shoot .5” 5rd groups.
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Same. I’ve got 3 from them. The 308, a 223 wylde and a 264lbc. I’ve got them all on sales over the last 6-7 years. They all shoot well. I have no complaints.
Varminterror
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How about Brownell AR10 barrels made by Faxon?
https://www.brownells.com/gun-parts...ts/ar-308-barrel-6.5-creedmoor-heavy-profile/
The AR10 can be a tac driver or a 2+ MOA rifle. I have a 16" POF in 308 that can shoo 1/2 moa out to 600 yards. It has also shot some large groups. I struggle with consistency. 1 moa is probably average but if you find a load it likes you might do better. I like the 178 gr range for factory ammo in a gas 308. I would prefer a 20" but I got the 16 on a fire sale. My biggest problem with the ar10 is you can shoot a lot of money in ammo in a matter of minutes
Varminterror
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Faxon is hit or miss. I don’t build on them for that reason. Too many have come to my door with accuracy issues. Some shoot fine, some are dumpster fires. Same with Odin.
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