Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

AR15 CQB carbine configurations, wich is "best" ?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by 686+, May 25, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. 686+

    686+ Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2003
    Messages:
    103
    Location:
    Longmont, CO
    I am looking at putting together a 16 inch carbine with an adjustable stock.

    I see that the options for configurations are gas block with sight, or just a picatiny rail. Upper reciever in a flattop or with a carry handle.
    I intend to put a red dot scope on the carbine, but not sure if mounting it to a handle, so it's high up, or to a flattop so it's low is best.

    Also, what about barrel type and weight? Any drawback to thin barrels other then accuracy reduction? M4 profiled barrels, what does that do for me?


    Please share your experiance and tell me what worked or seemed better.
    Thank you.

    686+
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2008
  2. possum

    possum Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2005
    Messages:
    8,942
    Location:
    Concord, N.C.
    i prefer and use a flattop carbine, as you say mounting an optic on the handle will be to high up. it will work but it is much nice and gives you a much better check stock weld moounted on a flatop.

    my first are was a a2 model and i sold it to get a flattopand have been happy ever since.

    as far as red dots my favorite are eotechs, but you can't go wrong with a aimpoint or even c-more sights are nice and low profile.

    i personally run my ar with the front sight base on the carbine, so if the red dot goes down i just flip up the buis and go to it, or worse case scenario i can use the eotechs screen as a big ghost ring sight and the front sight post which works at ecqc egagements.

    haveing a flip down fromt sight will keep it out of your sight picture while not using it, but if the iron sights are needed then you will have to flip up the front and back to get them in use.
     
  3. Bazooka Joe71

    Bazooka Joe71 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    2,803
    Location:
    Southern Indiana
    Possum pretty much summed it up...Flat top w/ an eotech and BUIS is going to be your best CQB set-up...With a light barrel.
     
  4. Jenrick

    Jenrick Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    1,679
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Dominator mount : http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=318

    If you ever need to go to your irons you will probably not have time to deploy non-fixed BUIS. A dominator or similar mount gives you fixed irons that you can immediately transition to. If my EoTech goes down, I just mash my nose forward and down to the charging handle, I'm, back in business. Same reason I like fixed stocks, one less thing to mess with when it hits the fan. Probably going to eventually go to a 1.5 or 1x ACOG so I don't have to even mess with turning my EoTech on, just grab and go.

    Far as barrels go, heavy barrels have a couple of things going for them. More mass so the heat up slower, more mass so they are harmonically more stable, more mass so with the above the shoot better. Please note the difference in how well a h-barrel and regular barrel shot is probably a non-issue for anything under a couple of hundred yards. As you stated this is for CQB, there's only one thing a heavy barrel has over a thin barrel, and that's it'll take more heat to burn it out, meaning more rounds down range in an engagement. As we're not in Iraq, it's probably a moot point.

    A thin or stepped barrel is much lighter. This means it's easier to keep up and ready, and IMO points faster.

    My work rifle is a 16" RRA regular contour barrel, fixed stock, flat top with a dominator and an EoTech on that. Zero'd for 50 yds, that gives me a maximum of +/- 2" out to over 200yds. Put the donut on the center of mass pull the trigger, need precision put the dot on the hair line pull the trigger.

    -Jenrick
     
  5. possum

    possum Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2005
    Messages:
    8,942
    Location:
    Concord, N.C.
    joe brings up a good point, if you want to keep it light weight, and since it isn't gonna be used for a precision rifle, a thinner lighter weight barrel is another good choice.

    also i am sure that at some point you will like to have a sling of some sort. i suggest a 1 point sling but that is my personal preference.
     
  6. JWarren

    JWarren Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,632
    Location:
    MS and LA
    Couple points to possibly consider...


    Lately, I am seeing some interesting discussions of EO Techs on AR15.com's optics area. Some seem to crap out more often than one would like:

    http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=379348

    http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=369513

    http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=374769

    http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=378942



    I am not so sure about single point slings either. They are a pain in the butt if you have to "carry" they weapon slung on your side.

    I'll take a two point.



    -- John
     
  7. briansmithwins

    briansmithwins Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2005
    Messages:
    4,063
    My setup:

    Barrel: 16" CMMG lightweight midlength barrel. I like the midlength gas system as it is not as violent as the carbine length gas system . 16" because I don't want to have the flash hider welded on or pay ATF $200 for the 'privilege' of having a 14.7" barrel.I like the fixed FSB as that's on less thing to go wrong.

    Receiver: Flattop upper receiver and standard A2 lower. No fancy double set triggers. I'm just not convinced that the accuracy gained by a 'fancy' trigger is that significant compared with the case of ammo I could buy to practice with. Stock is a fixed A1. I'm not that tall (5'10") and the A1 fits me better. Adjustable stacks are nice, but mostly seem to be something else to fiddle with and are more delicate than a fixed stock. I do use a MIAD pistol grip with the replacement bolt core as that's a spare I like having on the rifle.

    Optics: flattop receiver with Aimpoint ML3 (2MOA dot), Aimpoint 3X magnifier on a Larue pivot mount. Troy flip up rear BUIS. I agree with the earlier post that a fixed rear BUIS is better, but with the magnifier there isn't room for one. Also have a look at the Larue fixed BUIS, I used one before I went to this configuration and it works very nicely. With the Aimpoint and magnifier I can gets hits fast from contact to 400 yards.

    I've run this configuration for a few local practical rifle matches and at a class. It works for me. As for Eotechs, I've seen 2 rev F units die while shooting. Replacing batteries didn't recover them but leaving the batteries out overnight did. That's not a lot of failures for the amount of people I've been around that were using Eotechs, but it always sucks when it happens to you.

    BSW
     
  8. JWarren

    JWarren Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,632
    Location:
    MS and LA
    I went with a 16" barrel for the exact same reasons, Brian.


    -- John
     
  9. possum

    possum Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2005
    Messages:
    8,942
    Location:
    Concord, N.C.
    brian,
    what type of batteries were you using when they pooped out on you?

    i have a "aa" model and i have found if i use lithium batteries they last longer and the heat from high rd counts and extended training courses do not have the effect on the eotech like regular "aa" batteries.
    i able to go 2 days at a training course with the lithium batteries, and i replace them after each 2 days of training. that has seemed to have worked for me.
     
  10. briansmithwins

    briansmithwins Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2005
    Messages:
    4,063
    I use 1/3N lithium batteries in my Aimpoint, same battery for the 2 years I've had it. I generally don't turn the Aimpoint off as I figure the switch is more likely to fail with a quoted battery life of 5 years...

    I think one of the Eotechs was a CR123 model, I'm not sure as they weren't mine. Also, replacing the batteries did not get them running for the match, the shooters had to transition to irons.

    BSW
     
  11. sundance43.5

    sundance43.5 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    143
    I find the removeable carry handle to be useless. I have 3 AR's, and the only one with the handle still on it is my Colt 6920. I just like the way it looks stock from the factory.

    Since you specified a CQB type rifle, I would recommend that you look at a
    14.5" barrel with a permanently installed flash hider, to meet the 16" requirement. While it sounds like you're still getting a 16" rifle, the gun is actually 1.5" shorter overall, because 16" barrels still have the flash hider added on, adding 1.5" or so to the overall length.

    Also, Sabre makes a very nice 14.5" upper with a mid-length gas system, which many believe increases the gun's reliability. This is the upper that's going on my 3rd AR.

    Link to the Sabre from a great company:

    http://www.pkfirearms.com/store/get_item.aspx?id=1443&action=display

    Under the "PK Custom Uppers" link, there is the same upper, but with your choice of a railed fore-end.
     
  12. DMK

    DMK Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    8,797
    Location:
    Over the hills and far, far away
    I agree with what the others said here. Keep it simple. Think: light, handy, reliable.

    • Midlength gas system
    • Flat top upper
    • Red dot sight mounted low and forward.
    • Backup iron sights that will always be available in case a battery dies or something. (I went with folding rear sights, but I always leave them up)
    • Lightweight, pencil profile or Govt. profile, chrome lined barrel, 1/9 twist (1/7 twist if you want to shoot 75gr or 77gr bullets)
    • Standard handguards to save weight up front
    • Simple flashlight mount.
    • Good quality flash suppressor (Phantom or Vortex)
    • Simple single point or two point sling. Single point basically serves like a handgun lanyard, use a two point of you want to carry the rifle.
    • Good quality USGI mags (Labelle, D&H, etc)


    [​IMG]
     
  13. possum

    possum Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2005
    Messages:
    8,942
    Location:
    Concord, N.C.
    roger got it thanks.
     
  14. Bazooka Joe71

    Bazooka Joe71 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    2,803
    Location:
    Southern Indiana
    OK, I don't think this would be a thread hijack, as it is relevant to the OP's question:

    What are the advantages of a 1x power aimpoint opposed to an eotech? I've owned both and I can't see why anyone would want an aimpoint(1x) over an eotech.
     
  15. briansmithwins

    briansmithwins Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2005
    Messages:
    4,063
    Aimpoint advantages:

    1) 5 years battery life- that's with it ON 24/7/365. I don't like optics that eat batteries, before Aimpoint came out with these I was pretty much using tritium lit scopes.

    2) Simple- 1 control, no auto off.

    1 and 2 are enough for me. That was before I watched Eotechs die during a rifle match.

    BSW
     
  16. taliv

    taliv Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    22,098
    are you serious? the eotech absolutely sucks. having to use both hands in a very awkward position to shut it off is just ridiculous. plus, it can automatically shut off when you need it. plus, the battery life just stinks. plus, it's prone to failure. plus, their reticles stink. plus, the "it's faster because of the FOV" arguments are not compelling.

    i got one before i was well-read on the subject and put it on a class III gun that i rarely use simply because of aesthetics. the guns i shoot all have aimpoints or acogs.
     
  17. Bazooka Joe71

    Bazooka Joe71 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    2,803
    Location:
    Southern Indiana
    Um, well yeah I'm pretty serious, but thanks for asking...

    Not that it matters what you have to do to turn it off(since you aren't pressed for time), but if you need two hands then something is wrong.:confused: You must have teeny tiny hands, because my left thumb turns the eotech off with ease.

    24/7/365 for 5 years is a very nice feature, but I've never had a problem with the battery life...Especially if you just keep extras on hand...I've changed mine once and that was because I left it on over the winter and didn't do any shooting.

    I know opinions are like, um, well, you know, but I think the eotech's reticle is way, way better.

    With all that said, give me an ACOG anyday.



    Just my .02.:)
     
  18. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2003
    Messages:
    18,302
    Location:
    Ft. Worth
    Well to be fair, you shouldn't be somewhere urgent if you are turning it off :)

    As for it shutting off when you need it, it stays on for 8 hours. If you're in combat nonstop for 8 hours you have bigger problems than the Eotech battery :evil:
     
  19. taliv

    taliv Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    22,098
    i'm 6'5" with fairly large hands. my thumb easily covers both buttons, but i can't press both at the same time.

    you guys can make excuses all you want, but the fact remains that you don't need to turn an aimpoint off, and if you want to turn it off, you can do so with one hand. and that's just one of the "advantages of a 1x power aimpoint opposed to an eotech" that you asked about.

    there are all kinds of reasons you could be under time pressure without people shooting at you. or, you might be on the back porch and simply not want to put the cold beverage of your choice down in order to turn off the sight. :)

    and there are plenty of reasons you might want to leave it on longer than 8 hrs. for instance, if you have a truck gun and want to pull it out to take a shot at a coyote or something. the extra 2 seconds it takes to turn your sight on is a lifetime.
     
  20. Jenrick

    Jenrick Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    1,679
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    taliv: Not sure having to use to hands to shut off the EoTech is a bad feature, I've never found a need to do so in a non administrative setting either. Edit: just saw you're answer about having big hands. Fair enough reason :)

    On the overall EoTech vs. Aimpoint question:
    You're going to here a lot of pros and cons on each platform, a lot of opinions and pure nonsense too. Me I personally prefer the EoTech. However I will admit the Aimpoint has several advantages already listed, such as battery life and control simplicity. However just like your weapon, checking your sight is ready to go before you go on patrol, the range, on a mission, to class, etc can make up for a lot of things. Turn your sight on, check for the low battery indicator, etc. Make sure to turn your sight off, and double check that it's off before stowing it. Worried about it auto-offing at the wrong time? Use the up arrow to turn it on, that'll set it 8 hour auto off, with 8 more hours after another button press.

    I think the reports of EoTechs being less durable etc. are the normal result of everyone and their brother having a story of a guy they know. Just like Glock KB's, sure they happen, sure there are people with legitimate accounts, but overall it's a lot less frequent then it's reported to be. There are a lot of EoTechs and a lot of Aimpoints in service out there. Everyone I've talked talked to that used either sight, had no problems with theirs. This ranges from multiple tours in Iraq with a LOT of direct action experience to taking a 2 day AR class with a sub 1K round count.

    Find which one is more comfortable and works better for you, just like a firearm. The one YOU shoot the best is the better option.

    Back to OP's question on setups: Stay away from quad railed handguards. They add a lot of weight for very little gain. Let's look at realistically what you NEED to stick on them for CQB work. A sight if you're going for the scout rifle setup and a light source. That's it. All the rest that you can mount on the handguards: front grips, lasers, IR lasers, laser designators, shotguns, grenade launchers, tasers, etc are just candy (or mission specific). So worst case is you need two rails, if you're putting your sight on the receiver you don't even need that. Other then the sight nothing on the rails needs to be held at a true zero, the light etc can wander a bit with no harm. I would recommend using normal handguards with add on 1913 rails that just attach to the handguard in the ventilation holes. Much cheaper and lighter weight then a full railed hanguard. A good weapon light such as an M-3 or TLR-1 will hold up just fine and is cheaper then the an "AR Specific" weapon light. For about $65 you can get the remote tail cap assembly and switch, so for about $170 you now have a fully adjustable weapon light system on your AR compared to $300-700.

    Also stay away from flip up front sights. If you're optic goes down and you have a fixed front sight post you can shot using just and your optics shell as a gigantic ghost ring. Sure you're probably not going to be making hostage shoots at 200yds, but it'll work for what you need at close range. No front sight post, you're just doing instinctive shooting. Flip up sights are great if you're using a magnified optic mount on a quick release, as you can pop off your scope, deploy your irons and go in that building. You have some time in this case (possibly only 30 seconds, but that's a lot) where as in a building you may not have time, space, or the motor ability left to get them deployed.

    Slings
    Single Point Pros:
    Cheap
    Easy to setup, especially if your rifle has an attachment plate already
    Easier to transition to off hand side with sling on body then other options
    Single Point Cons:
    Releasing your rifle without trying to guide it somewhere can result in a rather painful whack in the pelvic area.
    Normally requires some method of securing the rifle to the side if you want it to stay on the side rather then hang down in the middle
    Can be very awkward to run and maneuver with you're rifle hanging straight down in front of you.

    Two Point Pros:
    Cheap
    Easy to install
    Traditional
    Can be used as a shooting aide how fancy you get with it is up to you (hasty sling all the way up to slinging in high power style).
    Carries the weapon very well in a multitude of carry positions
    Two Point Cons:
    Having the sling setup to allow the rifle to be deployed with the sling still on body makes it awkward to move with the rifle as you'll have a lot of slack in your sling.
    Very difficult to transition to off hand.
    Depending on how you carry the rifle slung, deploying it can make the sling come off body completely preventing you from releasing your rifle and still retaining it.

    Three Point Pros:
    Can allow easiest offhand transition if you get a good one that's designed for it
    Keeps weapon over to off hand side of the body when slung
    Allows you to maneuver and run with the rifle slung much better then a single point, and better then several of the two point variations.
    Cons:
    More expensive usually
    Most complicated to setup


    I like a three point as it puts the weapon across my body favored to the left, side clearing my sidearm when I release my rifle. Single points work well too, they just don't put the weapon out of the way as well. Two points can work very well as well. Look at what you need out of your sling and go from there.

    -Jenrick
     
  21. taliv

    taliv Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    22,098
    I don't suppose you were aware that the SOPMOD PMO "strongly recommends not using [eotech] until they can be replaced or repaired." ?
    or that "The SOPMOD PMO has ordered a halt on any further fielding of this item until sufficient testing has been performed on sights with the incorporated part upgrade. " ?

    http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=369513&page=1

    i recommend reading up on that as it's recent and relevant. some choice quotes include:

    "The initial failures occurred at 1,500 round on the low end and 7,500 rounds on the high end. "

    which explains why thousands of internet users aren't seeing the problem and falsely reporting there is no problem...

    " we run a 52 man class during the first 2 weeks we had 16 out of 52 shut off multiple times while shooting no matter how much you scraped the battery terminals. "

    more later...
     
  22. Jenrick

    Jenrick Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    1,679
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Yeah I had seen that, read it on that arf thread posted by JWarren.

    Not saying that there's not a problem. Not saying that this specific one about non-spec battery terminals isn't a legit issue either. I am however saying what's the failure rate, what models are affected, is it a specific range of SN's within a specific model, or is it a wide spread issue, etc.?

    I stated that I feel that the incidence of there being a problem is lower then it's commonly held to be. Same as with Glock KB's. Everyone knows about it, everyone knows someone who knows someone. How many people have actually had that problem, or can put me in direct contact with someone who has had that problem?

    I personally know 3 guys on another agencies SWAT team that put well over the high end failure numbers without any failures. A gentleman I work with served in Iraq as a Recon Marine, and his EoTech never went down on him. He liked his enough that he's getting one for his work AR after the Corp wouldn't let him take the one he used in Iraq home. So what does that say? That I know 4 people who have put a lot of rounds down range that didn't have a failure. Statistically that means nothing. Same with there being about 15 people on ar15.com who claim to have had problems.

    Again I'm not saying there isn't a problem. Making it out to be that all EoTechs are POS and WILL fail is overstating it in my opinion. If there were hard numbers or at least model or SN specifics I might be more inclined to believe it was a wide spread problem. As is it appears it's most likely several models that are not normally purchased by civilians (I'm not paying the extra $$$ for NV comparability I'll never use), and even then there's no info on what model or manufacturing time frame this affects.

    Obviously the suckers have worked just fine for a while, as they even made it into the SOPMOD project in the first place. I understand some people just plain don't like them, that's fine. Apparently there's a manufacturing problem currently, I don't think that invalidates the whole design.

    -Jenrick
     
  23. MT GUNNY

    MT GUNNY Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2006
    Messages:
    1,450
    Location:
    Kalispell MT
    The only thing I will add to what all have said is get rid of the stock hand guards make that barrel float!
     
  24. possum

    possum Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2005
    Messages:
    8,942
    Location:
    Concord, N.C.
    eotech pro's.
    65 moa circle which is approx the size of an average man at 100yds. used for range est. also great as a ghost ring for cqb.

    1 moa dot for more precise shooting if needed. cover 3" at 300yds instead of the 12" with a standard aimpoint.

    hash marks at the 3, and 6 oclock are great fror leading.

    also the eotech comes with the intregal mount. so you buy a $350 sight and the mount comes with it unlike the various aimpoints for the same cost.

    as far as needing 2 hands to turn off that makes no difference like the other posters have already said.
    btw dependig on what button you push for the eotech to come on depends on how long it stays on, they do turn off automatically after a certain ammount of time. 6 or 8 hours depending on the button you use.
     
  25. jrfoxx

    jrfoxx Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2004
    Messages:
    2,168
    Location:
    Evanston,WY
    FWIW, I have my red dot mounted on the carry handle of my M4, and comparing it to mounting with the handle removed, I find being on the handle more comfortable and natural for me, as the scope comes up right in front of my eyes, with my head close to staright up, which is faster, more natural, and more comfortable for me.

    But, as you can see, the VAST majority of people feel the opposite, so I'm apparently just wierd (that is not new information to me, either.It's been noticed before.:D). Try one on the carry handle if you can without spending any $$, or at minimun, get a cheap $8 handle mount to test and see what works. maybe your a freak like me.:p
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page