ar15 vs. m4

[Dimis]

ok so i stand corrected my apologies but maybe someone can clear up why companies such as daniels defence LMT and others can make the claim that there M4s are in service with us military?

 

[HorseSoldier]

Their upper receivers are, just not their entire rifles. An upper is not considered a weapon by the US military, just like the ATF, so units with discretionary funding for mission requirements can and do purchase uppers pretty freely to meet whatever needs they've got. This can range from very big picture procurement (Crane uses uppers or parts from LMT and various other companies) down to stuff individual small units buy.

 

[yongxingfreesty]

hmm so colt and noveske is the real deal.

 

[sarduy]

hmm so colt and noveske is the real deal.

not the real deal..... they just follow some specs....

for example... you ask to built a wall 1' thick... then you get...

company A: 11.9'' wall = out of specs (it works but it's out of spec)
company B: 1' wall = perfect (it meet your specs)
company C: 1.1' wall = out of specs ( it's stronger/better than your 1' wall spec, cost more, but doesn't meed your spec.


eventually you will go with the company B because it's what you want even thou you can get the same or better from other companies

 

[C-grunt]

So besides the auto, whats the difference between an M4 and a Colt 6921 (14.5 inch)?

 

[SHvar]

If you want an M-4 (of course semiauto only, the civilian model) many companies make milspec models. The primary differences are that if you get brand A the barrel may be 16 inches with a removeable flash suppressor, brand B will be 14.5 inches of barrel (like the military M-4) but the flash suppressor will be pinned and welded in place to prevent you from breaking the law by removing it.
Some people just like certain brands regardless of which offers what.

 

[SHvar]

Some bushmaster M-4/military history.
"Bushmaster Firearms entered the scene during Operation Desert Shield. With the imminent prospect of war, the military suddenly found themselves with a large demand for rifles. Many Army units were still armed with the M16A1, the replacement of which had only begun in 1986. With a large demand for M16A2s and M4s both from the US forces and allied forces, the Dept. of Defense approved a contract to buy M4 carbines from Bushmaster Firearms of Maine. Bushmaster supplied 4,000 M4 carbines to the DOD, these were deployed by the 82nd Airborne Division during Desert Shield and Desert Storm, reportedly being used by Gen. Schwarzkopf's bodyguards at one point.
Consequently, Bushmaster and Colt's are the only companies to have supplied M4s to the US military. Bushmaster M4s have distinctive markings"

If I only had the close up pictures I took of Norman bodyguards and him walking around after getting off of a Blackhawk one location. Take a guess what unit provided his bodyguards?

 

[kwelz]

If you want an M-4 (of course semiauto only, the civilian model) many companies make milspec models.

Very few companies make milspec models actually. RRA, BM, DPMS, etc don't even come close. Wrong Barrel twist, Wrong Barrel steel, wrong buffer, wrong Bolts, batch instead of Individual testing, etc.

Just because it looks like the real deal doesn't mean it is. There is a lot more that goes into the TDP/Milspec than just the outer looks.

Some bushmaster M-4/military history....

Interesting since Colt has been the only supplier of M4s to the Military, EVER. Not sure about M16s but I feel sorry for anyone in the service who was issued a Bushmaster. I hope they never had to use them in combat.

 

[mp5a3]

How much does the military pay for "the real deal" I thought I read somewhere it was $1500.

 

[Steamboatsig]

I found this:

 

[SHvar]

The civilian model M-4s from Bushy are slightly different than milspec by a few minute details (sight size, rifling twist, actual barrel length), but the military/government models are milspec just as required by the contract. By the way the 82nd used them, and the Special Forces (a few units) used them, yes they worked great in combat this is why the interest in the M4 later.
This was before colts first contract for the M-4 which was 1994.
"In 1984, Colt began work on a carbine version of its M16 family, and in mid-1985, the company won a US Army contract for 40 XM4 carbines for test; these were delivered the following year. It was not until 1988, however, that the US Navy Seals began to take delivery of RO727 carbines. The US Army officially adopted the M4 and M4A1 carbines in 1994.The procurement plan for the M4 for US forces as of May 2009 isThrough Fiscal Year 1998 (FY98), the US Army (which handles all purchases of US government weapons except for Special Forces) had bought 83,900 M4 carbines for the US Army, 4,500 for the US Navy and the US Marine Corps (USMC), 700 for foreign sales and 2,500 for non-military government agencies. The multiyear contract awarded in May 1998 purchased 36,120 M4s (comprising 343 for law-enforcement agencies, 50 for the US State Department, 1,059 for the US Marine Corps, 93 for the Colombian counternarcotics force and the balance for the US Army) and 7,729 M4A1s (comprising 306 for the US Air Force, 599 for the US Navy, 3,240 with heavy barrel for the Special Operations Command, 130 with heavy barrel for the USMC, 1,530 for Israel, 300 for the Bolivian counternarcotics force, 900 for the US border patrol, 559 for law enforcement and 165 for the US Army). That contract was replaced by another four-year contract in April 2004."
"Being derived from the M16A2, the M4 shares 80 per cent parts commonality with that rifle and operates in the same way. (See the entry on the AR-15/M16 family for full information.)Most US M4s now have the Rail Adaptor System (RAS, or Picatinny rails) in place. The USMC buys the rail systems from Knight's Armament and provides them to Colt, which installs them on USMC weapons on the assembly line. The US Army buys them as retrofit kits and installs them themselves. The army's procurement of rail systems has been completed, with a total of 84,240 having been bought and the last installed in 2005.The loss of the carrying handle when replaced with the RAS also means the loss of the iron sight. Hence, rail-equipped weapons are also provided with the Back-Up Iron Sight (BUIS). "
"The M4A1 is the M4 with the three-round-burst fire option on the trigger selector replaced by a full-auto option. These are used mostly by US Special Operations Forces (SOF). The Marines refer to their M4A1s as the Close Quarter Battle Weapon, or CQBR. Reliability problems have been reported with the M4A1 on full-auto fire and, in 2002, Colt received one contract for 3,240 M4A1 reliability-enhancement kits for SOF weapons."

 

[Mags]

Your numbers for the Air Force are off by tens of thousands I know from experience. Anyways everyone knows Benelli made the first M4.

 

[SHvar]

Those numbers are not my numbers. Oh really, then you already knew what the air force had aside from these few hundred M-4s were CAR-15s, not M-4s, I know from seeing them in person.
Information quoted from "Janes".
Also the Benelli M4 is a shotgun, its also called the M1014. Also the Air force plans on converting completely to the M4.

 

[Mags]

Damn SHvar loosen up the benelli comment was a joke and as far as the Air Force and M4s go everyone I have seen is an M4 and has one of these 3 names on the side Bushmaster, FN, and Colt as for the full conversion every stateside base I have been to has converted to the M4. Of course we still have the M16A2s for BAFs and such. But I am sure you would rather get your info from some website not from an active duty member. One more thing the M4 is whatever the military designates it as whether it be a GAU or an M4 as we know it.

 

[Jeff White]

It's a matter of court record that Bushmaster sold 65 (yes sixty five, not 6500 or 4000 but 65, halfway between 60 and 70, more then 50 but less then 75) rifles having all of the characteristics of the M4 to the US government in 1990.

The 82d Airborne did not receive 4000 M4s from Bushmaster. This was all brought out when Colt sued Bushmaster unsuccessfully for trademark infringement for calling some of their rifles M4.

http://www.ca1.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/getopn.pl?OPINION=06-1696.01A

No. 06-1696 COLT DEFENSE LLC Plaintiff Appellant v. BUSHMASTER FIREARMS INC Defendant Appellee

APPEAL FROM THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF MAINE

[Hon. George Z. Singal, U.S. District Judge]
Before
Lynch, Circuit Judge,
Selya, Senior Circuit Judge,
and Howard, Circuit Judge.
Michael A. Bucci, with whom Alexandra C. Fennell and Day,
Berry & Howard LLP were on brief for, appellant.
Jeffrey M. White, with whom Robert H. Stier, Jr., Gavin G.
McCarthy, and Pierce Atwood LLP were on brief, for appellee

May 18 2007

-2-
HOWARD, Circuit Judge. This appeal arises out of a
trademark dispute between Colt Defense LLC (Colt) and Bushmaster
Firearms, Inc. (Bushmaster) over Bushmaster's use of the term "M4"
in conjunction with its sale of certain firearms. The district
court concluded that the term was generic and not entitled to
trademark protection. We affirm.
I.
In 1959, Colt purchased the right to develop the
Armalite Rifle model 15 (AR-15), a small-caliber, gas-operated
carbine rifle initially developed at the Armalite Division of
Fairchild Engine and Airplane Corporation. Colt sold a variant of
the AR-15 to the United States military, which eventually
designated it as the M16.
1
In the early 1980s, the military determined that it
needed a more compact version of the M16. Colt originally designed
the prototype for this new weapon under a 1985 contract with the
military in which Colt agreed to build and test forty "XM4
Carbines." In 1990, the military entered into an agreement with
Bushmaster to provide sixty-five carbines "having all the physical
and technical characteristics of the M4 Carbine.

If Jane's is saying Bushmaster sold 4000 M4s to the government they are wrong.