Are double rifles really that tough to make?
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JesseL
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Apparently Merkel has applied a mechanism for adjusting the regulation of some of their double rifles. It even still looks exactly the way a fine double rifle ought to.
Funderb
Member
they make a .50bmg semiauto, that's a fairly significant round, yet my fairly compact neighbor and I seem to do fine when shooting it. 
JesseL
Member
I understand semi-autos are verboten in a lot of the countries where you would want a dangerous game rifle.
And quick pointing, too.
I don't own one, and I probably won't. But when you pick one up and point it, you see what it's good for.
It's like a quick upland bird gun, for large, charging African game. Few of us will ever have a reason to buy one.
But it's not something that is easily replaced with a semiauto, even if a semiauto is legal for hunting.
Small caliber semis can point really well. Even a Mini-14 is a pretty good pointer. But a semiauto action that you need to handle big cartridges gets in the way of a well-balanced gun.
I don't own one, and I probably won't. But when you pick one up and point it, you see what it's good for.
It's like a quick upland bird gun, for large, charging African game. Few of us will ever have a reason to buy one.
But it's not something that is easily replaced with a semiauto, even if a semiauto is legal for hunting.Small caliber semis can point really well. Even a Mini-14 is a pretty good pointer. But a semiauto action that you need to handle big cartridges gets in the way of a well-balanced gun.
JesseL
Member
I have seen rifles change their POI by several inches (@ 100yds) from just a recrowning. It's been demonstrated to me that the crown tends to shift POI in a direction perpendicular to the angle at which the crown is cut (which is generally perpendicular to the bore axis). I wouldn't be surprised if you could easily change the POI by 12MOA or more by tweaking the crown. In a double rifle you might do something like regulate windage with the crown of the left barrel and elevation with the crown of the right.
I think the level of precision in classic double rifles is seriously overestimated here too.
- They are almost always used at less than 100 yards, against very large targets.
- The fact that the barrels are on opposite sides of the center of the gun, means that each barrel will want to shoot towards it's side of the gun, away from the center. The shooter's physique and hold will probably have a significant role in whether this effect is minimized or exacerbated.
- Even the most careful barrel regulation will be easily confounded by too many variables to list.
My point is that I think that the standard to meet in making a double rifle of accuracy comparable to what has been previously seen, isn't really such a demanding standard at all.
LeibstandarteAdH
Member
With that method you would not be able to adjust in both directions, you would only be able to remove material and if that affected something too much, you would not be able to add it back, unlike the shimming process where the solder can be broken and material removed OR added via shims. The method you speak of with taking material off the crowns would multiply the number of adjustments while also dividing the means of adjustment, even if it could be done, you just could not change the POI effectily enough unless you completely recrowned the barell over again every single time you tried to make an adjustment to each barell, IF that would even effect POI enough to be used as a synch'ing method in the first place, it would introduce the above problems on top of the fact of maybe not even working in the first place. Crown work usually makes for groups opening up randomly, not in any given or the needed very precise direction that would be so critical in such a case as this.
Jim Watson
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There are at least some doubles that are regulated to shoot parallel. If the muzzles are an inch apart, the individual barrel groups are centered an inch apart at all ranges.
There are also medium caliber double rifles that can be as accurate as any iron sight (or low magnification scope) hunting rifle. Jack Lott described some fine shooting from a .318 W.R. and a 9.3x74R.
There are also medium caliber double rifles that can be as accurate as any iron sight (or low magnification scope) hunting rifle. Jack Lott described some fine shooting from a .318 W.R. and a 9.3x74R.
There was a thread on Thefiringline I think where a member had a double made in .45-70. He had it built on a Ruger Red Label 20Ga action as far as I recollect. I have been seriously thinking of having the same done, but on a CZ shotgun and in a beefier caliber. Not 'cuz I need it, just 'cuz I wants it. I am sure it is costly though.
JohnBT
Member
"Put a laser bore sighter in each barrel, mount them both in a jig, regulate them to the same POA, and CNC weld them together. Voila, a cheap and easy double gun, with reasonably good regulation."
The problem is that there is a barrel on each side of the centerline, not on the centerline but offset. Think of the rib as the centerline. You have a barrel off to the right and one to the left. When you fire a round suitable for dangerous game the tremendous recoil is going to pull/push/twist the gun off to the side affecting the point of impact. The other barrel yanks it the other way. Now, make them hit the same point. That's why double rifles are regulated for one load and one distance, they have to account for the lateral torque. A SxS shotgun does it too, but not nearly as violently as a .375 or .600, etc.
My understanding is that it's very difficult to build an O/U dangerous game rifle because the top barrel is so far away from the hinge and given the forces involved they will shoot loose sooner or later. It's been tried, over and over. Some work better than others.
John
The problem is that there is a barrel on each side of the centerline, not on the centerline but offset. Think of the rib as the centerline. You have a barrel off to the right and one to the left. When you fire a round suitable for dangerous game the tremendous recoil is going to pull/push/twist the gun off to the side affecting the point of impact. The other barrel yanks it the other way. Now, make them hit the same point. That's why double rifles are regulated for one load and one distance, they have to account for the lateral torque. A SxS shotgun does it too, but not nearly as violently as a .375 or .600, etc.
My understanding is that it's very difficult to build an O/U dangerous game rifle because the top barrel is so far away from the hinge and given the forces involved they will shoot loose sooner or later. It's been tried, over and over. Some work better than others.
John
JesseL
Member
Why not?
How much material do you think it would take for adjustment? At most we're talking a couple degrees of offset in the crown. Using a recessed crown so you don't end up with uneven barrel lengths, and it should be no problem to make dozens of adjustments if necessary.
Years ago I was in London on my way back from Zimbabwe and I stopped in at Holland & Holland. Man, one was nice that the next. Got to talking to a salesman, told him I wanted a double in 470 NE. He showed me gun after used gun in every possible chambering. We finally decide that I'll have to order one. He could take basic measurements right then, but I'd have to come back for a final fitting in 6 months. 8 to nine for total production.
He wanted half of the $24,000 price tag to get started. I had just come back from an Elephant hunt without and Elephant so I was flush and could have done it. I wish I had, as the last time I checked they were running around $100,000.
He wanted half of the $24,000 price tag to get started. I had just come back from an Elephant hunt without and Elephant so I was flush and could have done it. I wish I had, as the last time I checked they were running around $100,000.
I have one of the vaporware EAA O/Us in .308 Winchester, not a DG cartridge mind you but one that completely outclasses any gun you'll see in the deer camp. Yes, it's as ugly as your maiden aunt, but I paid $400 cash for it brand new.
Two advantages are the gun is about six inches shorter than a repeater for the same bbl length. It has 24" bbls but shorter than a 30/30 with 20" bbls.
It also has balance that allows you to mount it and fire almost instantly with the sights on target. Show me your repeater that will do that.
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