The sweetest .400 bore rifle.

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Bart, I don't know what they were doing in 1912, most of my references run from the interwar years to date, and all agree that the flanged cartridges were and are at the time loaded more lightly than the belted.
Caswell wrote in 1920 but must have been afield before the .375 Magnums were readily available because he only mentions the .375 "with 40 grains of Cordite" which is the .375 Express, not the Magnum. I find that the .375 Flanged Express was still loaded with 40 grains Cordite in 1939, but the rimless version got 42.

There was not an exact equivalent of the .404 with rim for double express rifles. It was apparently optimized for the Mauser but shooting about like the .450-400 which was well liked in doubles and singles.
 
Dr.Rob said:
Of your big bore rifles I've had the pleasure to shoot, and thank you for your generosity in letting me do so, that .404 remains my favorite.

It's a pretty rifle, (Dakota arms I think?) with traditional wood and a good thump without being punishing.
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Yes it's a Dakota 76 African. And you are welcome!
 
I think my generaration(I am 60 and proud of it) became aware of the .416 rigby because of Jack O'Connor in his outdoor life columns. He often mentioned turning the belts off .460 WBY brass to make it.
But at my tender age anything Jack liked was just boring. A .416 and a .270? How dull:cool:
 
Jim Watson said:
Bart, I don't know what they were doing in 1912, most of my references run from the interwar years to date, and all agree that the flanged cartridges were and are at the time loaded more lightly than the belted.
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Yes, and Winchester 54's chambered for the 300 H&H Mag could take higher pressures with better barrels and actions than the others so it handled higher pressures that round they loaded hotter than the Brits did with its cartridge.

Besides, I emailed H & H asked about such things. It's amazing how Internet data often differs from factual data.
 
I was at a gun range recently (pubic one) and found four .404 Jeffery empties. Pretty good looking round.

Deaf
 
Robert said:
Two rifles on my bucket list are a bolt gun in 404 Jeffery and a double rifle in 9.3x74R. This is you fault...
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You are welcome! I've been turning otherwise sane and intelligent shooters into raving heavy rifle, double rifle lunatics for quit some time now.o_O
 
Some interesting notes about the .404 Jeffery. The early rifles had a bore diameter of .419, .411, or .423 depending on who manufactured the rifle. Modern ..404s are all .423 diameter. If you find a clean older .404 that is for sale at a very reasonable price beware, it's almost certainly one of the odd bore diameters.

The .404 was named the .404 not for its bore diameter BTW. It was a marketing ploy, advertising that it was a .400 bore rifle that held 4 bullets. Which was a huge selling point back at the turn of the century when the round was developed and most rifles capable of hunting big game were still single shot or a double rifle.



The choice falls between Ruger chambered in .416 Ruger or mass produced French, German or Italian double rifle in caliber like .470 or .500. The rationale for Ruger bolt gun is one can get 2400fps w/o high cost and diameter enigmas of old .404 rifles. The magazine capacity is pointless because one isn't likely to be fast enough to use four or five shots at same animal. When it comes to large caliber weapons I would choose double because of two quick shots. The only problem for most Americans will be 2" to 3" composite groups at 50 yards and about twice that at 100. Understanding how large caliber doubles are sighted in, tested and used this is obviously not problem for someone like me. I help you out, yes. If you cheat by using same barrel to shoot given group in douing that you can usually shrink spread by about half, hint. That way you can post those wonderful little clusters you're so fond of posting on different boards.
 
Pablo,

Your post is a bit though to understand. But if you are talking about double rifles and composite right and left barrel groups I can assure you that I've got two doubles. And from a solid rest both are capable of sub 3" 4 shot groups at 100 yards. That being a right and a left followed by a right and a left. In fact my little 9.3 with a scope mounted will amaze you at 100 yards. It will basically rip a ragged hole with 4 shots at 100 yards.

Obviously off of sticks standing and with iron sights you are more in the 4 to 6" range at 100 yards with a heavy double, which is perfectly suitable for DG hunting.

As far as magazine capacity being pointless, I'd have to say that there are times in dangerous game hunting when magazine capacity, speed and reloading on the move can become very meaningful. If you've done much DG hunting you'll have an occasion to understand what I'm talking about sooner or later.

Of course Ruger is not the only company producing rifles in .416 at an affordable price point. Winchester and CZ are a couple that immediately come to mind.
 
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I meant three shots per barrel at 50yards using express sight holding rifle in arms supported by leather or vinyl bean bag from standing bench. With Four to five hundred grains at Vo of about 2200fps two inches at 50 paces is considered very good with 3" considered good.
 
Bart B. said:
Yes, and Winchester 54's chambered for the 300 H&H Mag could take higher pressures with better barrels and actions than the others so it handled higher pressures that round they loaded hotter than the Brits did with its cartridge.

Besides, I emailed H & H asked about such things. It's amazing how Internet data often differs from factual data.
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No doubt at all that the Americans souped up the .30 Super into the .300 H&H Magnum. I have Winchester and British ammo listings for 1939 and the Winchester is substantially higher velocity. I didn't know it was because a Model 54 was stronger than a Magnum Mauser, though.

My question is, if the .375 H&H was introduced in 1912 with the same load in flanged and belted versions, when and why did they reduce the flanged (or increase the belted?)
 
Jim Watson said:
No doubt at all that the Americans souped up the .30 Super into the .300 H&H Magnum. I have Winchester and British ammo listings for 1939 and the Winchester is substantially higher velocity. I didn't know it was because a Model 54 was stronger than a Magnum Mauser, though.

My question is, if the .375 H&H was introduced in 1912 with the same load in flanged and belted versions, when and why did they reduce the flanged (or increase the belted?)
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The rimmed versions were designed for break open actions which benefitted from lower operating pressures. The same holds for 9,3x62 vs. 9.3x74R. Lower velocity and average gas pressure. The reason English loading velocities were lower was because the English understood limitations of bullets of that time and knew what felled game while Americans believed and still believe that if it doesn't kick it does't work.
 
Pablo is exactly right. The flanged (rimmed) version of a round is designed to be used in a double rifle. The flanged version of the .404 Jeffery is the 450-400NE.

Doubles by necessity operate at lower pressures.
 
I understand the break action vs bolt action rationale.
But Bart asserted that the .375 H&H was initially loaded the same in both versions. They were not later on and are not now, but he said they started out the same.
 
Jim,

The original .375H&H was loaded at very low pressures and velocities.

This was due to originally being a cordite round. Cordite is very temperature sensitive and all of the old British rounds designed to be used in high heat and tropical regions had huge cases and relatively small powder charges. This was done to keep the pressures low at high ambient temperatures.

Reading about hunting in those days it was required procedure to rotate rounds from your chamber at regular intervals. The rounds pick up ambient heat from sun heated barrels and chambers. Not rotating the rounds would result in a dangerously high pressure round that could cause your rifle to not extract or worse!
 
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Jim Watson said:
I understand the break action vs bolt action rationale.
But Bart asserted that the .375 H&H was initially loaded the same in both versions. They were not later on and are not now, but he said they started out the same.
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Not sure how they started out, but in .375 H&H the current US loadings could benefit from 200fps reduction in velocity. Interestingly about 100 years ago there was lawyer from Buffalo NY that came out with belt-less .30 and .35 magnums. It is a pity there was no powers and or bullets capable to take those to their full potential. I laugh when manufacturers continue to come up with modern belt-less wonders. Man, all I can say is you folks are century late. What took you so long?
 
I understand the behaviour of Cordite on the veldt. I am just debating Bart on post #23 where he says the H&H flanged and belted started out with the same loads. Maybe they did, but not for long.

I have that book before me, Bart. Including the part where it says "The flanged version is for double rifles and is loaded a bit lighter." Then shows separate listings for the two versions. In current practice the .300 Flanged is only 25-50 fps behind the Belted, but in 1939 it was more like 50-75 fps with a two grain reduction in powder charge. He does not show separate ballistics for the .275s but repeats "The rimmed version load was slightly reduced from the belted."

In 1939 the .275 Flanged was 100 fps slower than the .275 Belted. Western was loading a 175 nearly as fast as Eley loaded a 160 in the caliber. Nitrocellulose powder and temperate zone customers, no doubt.

I would like to see the introductory material for the family in 1912 and 1925.
 
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H&Hhunter said:
Pablo,

Your post is a bit though to understand. But if you are talking about double rifles and composite right and left barrel groups I can assure you that I've got two doubles. And from a solid rest both are capable of sub 3" 4 shot groups at 100 yards. That being a right and a left followed by a right and a left. In fact my little 9.3 with a scope mounted will amaze you at 100 yards. It will basically rip a ragged hole with 4 shots at 100 yards.

Obviously off of sticks standing and with iron sights you are more in the 4 to 6" range at 100 yards with a heavy double, which is perfectly suitable for DG hunting.

As far as magazine capacity being pointless, I'd have to say that there are times in dangerous game hunting when magazine capacity, speed and reloading on the move can become very meaningful. If you've done much DG hunting you'll have an occasion to understand what I'm talking about sooner or later.

Of course Ruger is not the only company producing rifles in .416 at an affordable price point. Winchester and CZ are a couple that immediately come to mind.
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I have to disagree with your statement about magazine capacity on DG. But all my exipirince is with brown/grizzys not cape buffalo but in all the times (3 I can think of) it was life or death, kill or be killed, I only had time for one shot.
I cannot over estimate how fast a grizzly can close on you. You're lucky to get the one shot off.
But you are talking Africa a whole different world from what I know. Lucky SOB:D
 
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