Are Double Wads OK?

[WillRuss]

New BP Shooter Question
I'll be shooting 777 FFFg with my new Uberti 1858 Remington New Army. Based on what I've read here, it appears that I need to load about 25grns for a 30grn BP equivalant. I want to have the seated ball as close to the top of the cylinder as possible, though, so I need a spacer between it and the powder. Now I've also read that I can use corn meal (um..."grits" down here) as a spacer, which I might end up doing, but can I just load double wads instead? An extra Wonder Wad seems to be just the thickness I need and I've got a ton of 'em. Would that negatively effect my shot?

Oh, I plan on "rolling my own" based on the paper cartridge thread just to avoid having to measure anything at the range. (It get's windy out there.) I'm going to try just rolling the powder, though, then seating the wad(s?), then the ball. No, it probably won't be as fast as creating a paper cartridge with everything, but I'm going to experiment anyway. I've been playing with different paper sizes and tubes. I've found that wrapping the paper around a waxed 7/16" dowel makes a perfect .44 sized tube. I've discovered some nice tricks to making the tiny "powder bags", too. After I make sure they work okay, I'll post some instructions.

 

[DaveP (UK)]

I havent, but I know a man who does, use wads, without problems. I have heard from people who use more than one. Dont worry about it!
You are right about 777 being a little more powerful than BP, IIRC the conversion factor is on the label, if not it is on Hodgdons web site. Most people I know tend to use a little less powder than you suggest, from 18gr (indoors) to 23 for longer ranges. I'm currently using 20gr BP and its surprising how little drop there is at 100 yds! Working out what works for you is part of the fun.
If you intend to try a cereal based filler shop around and look for a grade/brand that is on the gritty side. Fine floury powders are a right pain because they dont flow well and tend to cake up if the air is moist.
I can see problems in loading a paper cartridge containing a close fitting wad and a tight fitting ball, but why not try building cartridges around a wad? Position wad on end of dowel and glue paper to it as you go.They should pop in under finger pressure leaving you to load only the ball separately.

 

[Wwalstrom]

Paper Cartridges

I've found that a bullet nose sharpie marker shaft works very well for .44 caliber cartridges. I'm considering using a filler inside to take up space, haven't figured out the exact items I'll need, but possibly the powder, a felt wad, then filler, and finally ball.

 

[Phillip Allen]

other than using up wads faster I don't see a problem...you might want to get anal about checking the bore for a while to make sure they actually leave and go down range

 

[DaveP (UK)]

You might encounter difficulties using a filler in a paper cartridge - if its not very firmly packed filler and propellant could mix which could affect the combustion, and probably not for the best!

It is possible to buy felt in various thicknesses. Just ensure that it is 100% wool. Punch out your own with a wadcutter!

 

[Mark whiz]

I've used double wads and it causes no problems at all. Like DaveP said, you can get thicker felt and make them on your own (as that is what I have done now).

 

[mec]

Two wads work fine. H777 is less predicatable than pyrodex or regular black powder. You can get very good results with it and the key seems to be seating the ball on top of the powder without any appreciable degree of compression. H777 will compress quite a bit but my results with those overcompressed loads has been wildly extreme velocity spreads. The smaller volume charges as mentioned above and in the Hornady literature will help reduce the amount of compression on loading.

Paper cartridges are fine I guess but I find it very tedious to make them- more so than loading from a flask or measure. Others may be more adept at rolling and glueing the things together.

 

[WillRuss]

From DaveP (UK): ...look for a grade/brand that is on the gritty side.

It doesn't get any "grittier" than good old Southern (US) dry grits. Thanks for the idea about rolling the wad in with the paper. I may have to try that, and leave some space for filler on top.

Perhaps I'll start with 20gr and use filler for the empty space, and see how it shoots. I'll load a few with more and a few with less as well to find the "sweet spot" on the loading chart. Oh, I'm using Hornady .454 balls, too, and Remington #10 caps.

Thanks for the input everyone!

 

[Afy]

Will I sound ignorant but what is a bullet nosed sharpie marker? And how do you use it?

Maybe my brain is on vacation currently.

 

[Plink]

Double wads won't cause you any problems. I've used them for light loads for years. Only recently have I been using cornmeal or cream of wheat but I still prefer wads.

 

[Wwalstrom]

Bullet Nose Sharpie Marker ...

Afy, these are what I was talking about ...
http://www.flaxart.com/Art-Materials/Drawing-Illustration/Markers-Pens/Sharpie-Markers

The shaft is tapered from .485" (just below the color indicating cap) down to .426" (plus or minus, at the start of the "bullet tipped" end of the shaft). I scribe a line on the shaft where I want the end of the rolling paper to line up.

It takes a bit of trial and error, and is dependant upon the ball diameter and powder charge. The bullet tip works great for closing the end. I make a 3-way pinch-fold to the end, and use a couple of dabs of Elmer's white glue, applied with a toothpick, and twist the end closed.

I'll sit in front of the TV, and roll and glue a bunch of papers, and then I'll let them sit for a bit (to dry).

After they're dry (which doesn't take long), I can load 'em sitting in front of the TV. After they're all rolled up and sealed, I put them in a 45 ACP ammo box (a tip I picked up here at THR) ... one of those hinged-lid jobs, with the square holes for cartridges. Label the box with powder, charge, and ball diameter, and you're ready to load, cap, and blaze away.

Some things I have found, with paper cartridges:
(1) You can just stuff them in the chamber, or tear the powder end, and dump some powder into the chamber before ramming them in.
(2) If you tear the end, you don't need to puncture the cartridge with a nipple pick, through the nipple flash hole.
(3) 90 plus percent of all the cartridges I have just "rammed home" and poked with a pick have had most of the paper left in the chamber after the shot. The paper is usually a PITA to get out of the chamber.

If I get a chance this weekend, I'll take some digital pictures showing how I use a sharpie marker, and post them up. I'll make a reference here, and post in the paper cartridges thread.

 

[Wwalstrom]

Pictures added to Paper Cartridges thread

in the Blackpowder Essentials Sticky. This is my method of using a sharpie marker as the paper tube form.

 

[Afy]

Cool... now I must find some sharpie markers....

Another question... what is the maximum charge you can get into a paper cartridge?

I am going to experiment and find out I guess...

 

[Wwalstrom]

What Charge

Depends upon the length of the rolling papers. The ones in the digital pics I posted were with 35 grains of Pyrodex P. With a bit of adjustment, I think you could get another 15 to 20 grains in the cartridge ... but you'd never fit that in an 1858 Reminton (or 1851/1860 colt) ... maybe for a Walker or Dragoon ...

 

[DixieTexian]

I tried making paper cartridges once, but I found a real quick and easy way (for me) to roll them. I filled one of those adjustable powder measures up with powder and then sat the ball on top. The measure had a smaller diameter than the ball to provide for some taper. Then I rolled my paper around the ball and measureand gave it a second to dry. Then I just turned it upside down and pulled the measure out leaving a tube of paper and the ball. I closed off the end, and had me some cartridges. I didn't roll them as tight as I could have on the measure, so I had to finagle them a bit to get them in the cylinder, but it worked pretty good overall, and was easy to do.