about ball/bullet sizes, combustible paper cartridges and bird shots

[tra27]

Hey,

I'm new here and also new to black powder shooting. I've taken interest in making combustible paper cartridges and being curious i've been measuring the conical bullets and round balls that i've been using. It might be normal, but seems weird to a newbie that when i measure .454 RB or conical with my digital caliper i get readings .451, .452, .458 and so on. I'm thinking it most likely is user fault, allthough i think i center it quite close to the center. Could it be a cast flaud or are .454 round balls always consistently .454 diameter if done properly?

Second question is when i ram the combustible paper cartridge to the cylinder does the ball make a seal between powder and outside of ball even if the ball is partly covered by the paper?



About the same looking that i have. Is it dangerous if a granule or few of bp get caught between the ball and paper? What if the paper cone is bigger than the ball and i seat it over the black powder and the there is free space between paper which i need to seal with glue?

Third question is about bird/snakeshot. I've heard that some people have done those using paper creating a snakeshot cartridge. How is this done? What kind of felt/wad could be used in those between powder and lead balls? I'm also unable to find a tool to cut proper sized wads for example from milk cartons.

Thanks all for help!

 

[rodwha]

Casting with pure lead can have the potential to not fill completely from what I've been told as I have issues with my bullets. If they are swaged they ought to be on the money I'd think. I was told to add a little tin, but I don't want to get into that.

You will get a complete seal when you ram it home. The paper won't cause issues as it will be shaved too.

I am uncertain if it's an issue to have a granule of powder between the projectile and cylinder wall, but I'd think it not an issue to be concerned with, and may likely also get shaved.

I've seen some make paper cartridges with a ball by twisting the excess paper over the ball with no gluing needed. When I made mine I made paper powder packets something like the old Navy guns used with the ball separate.

I have been curious about shot loads as well, and figured I'd try a felt wad under and over the shot, or possibly cardboard. Maybe melting beeswax over it if recoil dislodges it.

I get my felt from durofelt.com. She caries many thicknesses, but I've only used the hard 1/8" thick felt.

There's a retired machinist on a traditional forum who makes custom punches. Nothing fancy but they work quite well and are inexpensive, and I like supporting the little guys when I can. He has made me 2 punches, a short starter from antler, and a range rod.

 

[tra27]

Thanks for the answer! What would be a good and in spirit of the old west way to store those combustible paper cartridges?

I have a few repro cartridge boxes that hold six cartridges, got them of ebay, but thats way too expensive way to store them.

 

[rodwha]

Maybe you could fashion some from thin cardboard such as from cereal or crackers or such?

It's been a long time, but on one of these forums the fellow recreated himself some with a pull string. Not sure which forum it was on, and when I search forums I typically feel I'm in a Bing commercial finding everything but what I'm lookin for.

How much powder and of what brand/type are you using? And what of the bullets I saw?

 

[DPris]

Don't expect too much from birdshot, short-range only, pattern will spread rapidly.
Denis

 

[kBob]

Blast, I am so bad at names!

The Hungarian guy with a shooting channel on you tube. Linked to posts here for stuff like shooting original Savage revolvers and the Kerr.

.....and no despite my occasional asking about the Kerr to see if new guys have more data that is not what the k in -kBob is for....

His outfit was offering some card board ammo box repros or was going to.

Would not be surprised if someone had not posted a pattern on THR BP at some point. I believe someone did printable labels some years back, both for boxes and for cap tins.

-kBob

 

[rhemcla]

The hungarian's channel is called capnball if I remember correctly

 

[whughett]

This is my version of a cartridge box. I don't use paper cartridges but made several of these for the quick load tubes. Its nothing more than a solid block of pine bored out to accept 48 tubes. The sides and sliding top are made of 1/8 Baltic birch plywood from Hobby Lobby.

Easy to make with rudimentary wood working tools.

Not authentic but effective.

 

[tra27]

I'm using 30 grains of Swiss FFFg. Those conicals are round nose 190 grains and semiwadcutter 180 grains, also have round balls which are 140 grains. And i have also some 200 grain round noses. That paper is flash paper and in the primer end i have only thin layer of cigarette paper or tea bag paper, should make it easier for the ignition reach the powder... Some even suggest poking a hole through nipple with a nipple pick before putting on the cap.

I was also thinking about a box with a wooden box inside which has holes drilled in. Could fashion somekind of old time label on the box and print it and then attach it to the box cover.

 

[Armored farmer]

I'm not finding any printable ammo labels. I have searched for them here and on the web. It sure would be nice though.

 

[rodwha]

I just used American Spirits cigarette papers and never had an ignition issue without poking the papers. My bases were either a twisty pig tail cut short, or folded over and glued to itself when I made powder packets for loose ball.

 

[Stormson]

I only load ball in them... My reasoning behind that is conicals are a bit harder to load, and since paper cartridges are meant for speed loading, well, balls are just faster.

Have only ever used cig paper. Rod (above, and a great guy!) sent me some American spirit papers and nitrate powder. The papers worked fine just as they are, and I find that e-z widers seem pretty thin. I have never once had a failure to fire with 777 and just using the "fold over and glue" method. I DO usually have left over bits of paper left over in the chambers... Havent had time to try nitrating them though, so that may help.

I havent tried snake shot yet, but have been researching it and will probably try soon. Im thinking a wad over powder then a waxed cardboard cap over the shot, with elmers glue to hold it in place and give a little extra 'umph'. I was also thinking maybe using a dry over powder wad and some melted wax/grease mixture poured in the shot and cooling/drying before the glued cap goes on.... but im a tad hesitant about the heat+nearby powder equation lol...

 

[rodwha]

With conicals/bullets I've seated them in my paper cartridges makin them quick and easy to load in one motion. My Remington's chambers have been reamed to 0.449" to make sharing my 0.456" bullets easier.

As for sealing the shot chambers how about melting beeswax or Gatofeo lube? Seems like it might be better.

 

[Stormson]

well, I do want some sort of lube in the load in some way, but the glue on top sounds like it does a few things in one...

Seals against moisture and chain fires from the front, Reduces the chance of the load shifting from recoil, and also sounds like it would add a bit of power since its harder and gives just a little more time for pressures to build.. Shrugs... I dunno, just sounds like the glue cap is a really good idea. Was thinking the melted lube could mix in with the shot itself and then the glue cap over a wax cardboard (milk carton) card... best of both worlds?

Sort of related... If this idea works good, I was thinking that pure sealing wax (gulf canning wax) mixed with the shot, instead of the lube mix, MIGHT hold together well enough to make a sort of 'frangible' bullet... Hold together until it hits the target, but being soft enough to break back into its individual shot once it came in contact with the resistance of the target... what do you guys think?

 

[DD4lifeusmc]

casting tolerances:
Moulds coming off an assembly line aren't always identical in dimensions.
Also depends if your lead is truly pure.
Pure vs alloys will shrink different amounts as they cool.
Many manufacturers list the cast projectile weight as if you casted with wheel weights. so beware of that, when researching moulds.
WW lead will normally weigh slightly less than pure.
Also over the years WW lead has been re-alloyed. Many are now iron and or zinc based. Feds trying to remove lead from everyday use.

if in casting, your lead is not completely filling the mould, it will be obvious when you inspect the cast. It will have a definite visible flaw.
And make sure you are not measuring across the sprue or the mould half dividing lines.

Personally when it comes to moulds, I believe you get what you pay for just like in anything else in life. Consequently I never use the cheap aluminum ones any more.
Mine are all more expensive Quality steel ones.
I used to cast the old version of Lee's 45-200 conical
I no longer cast them but still have plenty on hand unsold.
Picking 10 out of a container 8 were right on at .450 across the base.
One was .451 and one was .448
Now going to some round balls all steel moulds
picking ten at random
.311 all measure .311
.380 -- .380
.440 -- .440
45-190 conical custom
bases run .446 as per spec some .448
The custom mould maker says to allow .002 +/- in his machining tolerance.
But as lead cools sometimes it will shrink a tad more than the next one

Now to be fair I usually keep a 1,000+ of each style / caliber on hand, so a sampling of ten may not be enough. And there could be a few that are out of spec.
And I have about 10 other styles and calibers I cast, but for our use.
Close is generally good enough.
-----------
As to your paper question
if the ball or conical is .450 or larger in diameter, and the paper is layered over it. The seating process will cut the paper loose as it is pressed into the chamber.
It may compress it into the ball, or shave it it off along with a small amount of lead the same way as if you were loading just the ball.
Very unlikely you will have any gap around the circumference of the ball, even if paper is uneven.
Also very unlikely you will have any powder grains wedged between the ball and chamber. Even if you did, very unlikely they would be able to ignite and cause a chain fire.

 

[tra27]

We dont have big enough cigarette paper here, so unless i glue two normal size papers together, i need to stick with other papers. That flash paper in my first post is actually quite good because its bit harder than cig paper and holds it form quite good. Also it burns really clean. I still have about 150+ of those flash papers, its easy because they are pre cut to fit the mandrel. Tea bags would be lot cheaper but its lot softer and maybe bit harder to work with.

About bird shot. What would be a good powder/lead balls ratio? I have scavenged from my cheap trap shots some 2.4mm lead balls. Maybe thats the cheapest way to go. Actually haven't found anything smaller for sale here. It would require a some amount of shots to have some effect. Gun is uberti 1858.

 

[tra27]

I've been thinking the best way to keep my gun lubed when shooting paper cartridges. There was some discussion about wad between powder and bullet inside the paper, but as someone mentioned, it will be difficult because wad should be a bit bigger than bore diameter that it properly lubes the bore when travelling through the barrel.

In case of round balls only choice seems to be lube over ball, allthough most of it blows off and doesnt lube the barrel as effectly as wads.

In case of bullets it might be possible to fill the lube grooves of the bullet and that might be sufficient?

So maybe when shooting round balls it would be best to use powder - wad - ball combination and use the paper cartridges for bullets.

 

[rodwha]

Lube in the bullet grooves does work fine with paper cartridges.

For a ball I made just a powder bag and loaded the ball separately.

 

[tra27]

Well maybe powder bag, then i glue the wad on top of it and glue ball on top of the wad? Maybe going overboard with this here...?