Are Lighter 5.56 Bullets Less Likely To "Over-penetrate"?
- Thread starter HGM22
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FL-NC
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With all due respect, I think the idea of "less likely" to penetrate is a pointless argument, especially dealing with rifle rounds of any type. Think about it- you are firing a 5.56 round. High velocity, designed to be effective for several hundred meters and travel a lot further. ASSUME whatever is crimped on the end of that thing is going through some construction material, unless we are talking about some type of masonry. Just my 2 cents.
Assuming that the velocity is the same, yes, the heavier bullet will penetrate more layers of sheetrock but almost any gun/bullet will penetrate at least one layer of sheetrock or one standard wall for that matter (two layers of sheetrock separated by a small space). Birdshot has the least chance of penetrating more than one standard wall of sheetrock.
GunnyUSMC
Member
I have found that when hunting indoors with a rifle, no matter what caliber, you will end up killing a wall are two. Kind of like hunting outdoors, you going to hit a tree or two.
Frangible ammo is better suited for hunting indoors, but will still go through a sheetrock wall.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/223-556-frangible
Frangible ammo is better suited for hunting indoors, but will still go through a sheetrock wall.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/223-556-frangible
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
The lighter bullets are generally intended as varmint loads and are far more likely to "blow up" at impact. They could easily penetrate drywall, but what goes on from it will likely be small pieces of the bullet.
I'd set up a few pieces, maybe with four-inch separation, and see what happens.
I'd set up a few pieces, maybe with four-inch separation, and see what happens.
Carl N. Brown
Member
I thought the point of introducing 62gr and heavier in .223/5.56 was to increase penetration.
I like Art's idea. I would get some scrap 2x4s, drywall and panelling and make some test inner wall sections. Maybe even outer wall with pink insulation between sheetrock and some tar paper and shingles on one side. I like excuses to go shoot on the family property on the mountain, and the upper range at the gun club allows free form targets too.
I like Art's idea. I would get some scrap 2x4s, drywall and panelling and make some test inner wall sections. Maybe even outer wall with pink insulation between sheetrock and some tar paper and shingles on one side. I like excuses to go shoot on the family property on the mountain, and the upper range at the gun club allows free form targets too.
FL-NC
Member
FL-NC
Member
I guess the best way to really test this is to find a building slated for demolition and actually do it. Get permission. That's how we did this kind of thing in the military. We brought our weapons suppressed and bullet traps that would stop the calibers we were testing.
Sunray
Member
The guys at 'Box o' Truth'(bunch of good 'ol boys playing with stuff) played with dry wall and .223 a few years ago. A .22 HP out of a revolver will penetrate 6 5/8" sheets of dry wall with ease. Note the 3rd lesson learned.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-1-the-original-box-o-truth/
Here's another one. Those guys have far too much fun. http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-14-rifles-shotguns-and-walls/
However, the physics says, yes, a heavier bullet of the same construction will penetrate more.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-1-the-original-box-o-truth/
Here's another one. Those guys have far too much fun. http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-14-rifles-shotguns-and-walls/
However, the physics says, yes, a heavier bullet of the same construction will penetrate more.
1stmarine
Member
The weight of the bullet alone says little about how it will behave in any given media.
Normally light 22 cal bullets are varmint that are soft jackets and of explosive nature for varmints.
FMJs originally design to tumble will produce more penetration and fragmentation but with modern faster twists
do not work as originally intended. A simple 62gr fmj provides more momentum at the same cost.
Solids like barnes will stay together and offer more penetration w/o fragmentation regardless of the weight.
So it is hard to say what the bullet will do w/o talking about a specific bullet model, impact speed and media/target.
For example a Norinco 55gr fmj tumbles like crazy vs. most other budget 55gr fmjs. Some Russian fmjs are harder
because of the thicker jackets so they penetrate more and do not perform so well in terms of wounding potential.
So even when we say 55gr FMJ we should be specific what brand and bullet construction.
A barnes 70gr TSX will produce huge penetration but might not be as effective as a 62gr from the same design
fired from the save casing/gun as these rely more on speed to activate and therefore the 62gr might provide
a better balance between penetration and expansion. This is the case with the 223 but if one has a 22-250
one might go for a 70gr at higher impact speeds given one has 1:8 twist minimum.
Bonded are also a great compromise like the 64gr winchester. This also makes a nice round for a patrol
rifle for those in law enforcement. It is not just about energy at the muzzle that is normally a meaningless
measure but how those bullets behave in a variety of situations upon impact in the real world scenarios
and applications.
Normally light 22 cal bullets are varmint that are soft jackets and of explosive nature for varmints.
FMJs originally design to tumble will produce more penetration and fragmentation but with modern faster twists
do not work as originally intended. A simple 62gr fmj provides more momentum at the same cost.
Solids like barnes will stay together and offer more penetration w/o fragmentation regardless of the weight.
So it is hard to say what the bullet will do w/o talking about a specific bullet model, impact speed and media/target.
For example a Norinco 55gr fmj tumbles like crazy vs. most other budget 55gr fmjs. Some Russian fmjs are harder
because of the thicker jackets so they penetrate more and do not perform so well in terms of wounding potential.
So even when we say 55gr FMJ we should be specific what brand and bullet construction.
A barnes 70gr TSX will produce huge penetration but might not be as effective as a 62gr from the same design
fired from the save casing/gun as these rely more on speed to activate and therefore the 62gr might provide
a better balance between penetration and expansion. This is the case with the 223 but if one has a 22-250
one might go for a 70gr at higher impact speeds given one has 1:8 twist minimum.
Bonded are also a great compromise like the 64gr winchester. This also makes a nice round for a patrol
rifle for those in law enforcement. It is not just about energy at the muzzle that is normally a meaningless
measure but how those bullets behave in a variety of situations upon impact in the real world scenarios
and applications.
Snyper
Member
The "Box O' Truth" has done all that.I'd set up a few pieces, maybe with four-inch separation, and see what happens.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Snyper, don't be a kill-joy. A guy needs to test whatever ammo HE is likely to want to use.
A guy needs to test whatever ammo HE is likely to want to use.
grampajack
AR Junkie
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It depends more on the bullet's construction that its weight. Even bullets of the same construction don't always behave like you would predict. For one thing, an increase in mass usually means a decrease in velocity.
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This comment makes very little sense to me. There are two flaws here;
First, you claim that bullet weight doesn't indicate how well a bullet will penetrate but then you say that, given the same bullet design, the heavier weight 70gr bullet will penetrate better than a lighter 62gr bullet.
Second, you are talking about balancing penetration and expansion needs without mentioning what the medium is nor what your goal is. If you want to kill a squirrel really quickly then I'd bet that we could agree that almost any bullet that weighs enough will do the job but if I'm trying to drop an elk at 300 yards then I need to do a better job of picking the right bullet, one that wont expand as quickly but will penetrate through thick muscle and bone would do the job best. You might also need less expansion because you want to take a fur bearing animal without destroying the fur, in that case you'd probably want a fairly fast, light bullet that wont expand. I don't need the TSX style bullet to go fast if I put it where it should go, I only need it to go fast if I want it to expand.
Energy at the muzzle isn't ever meaningless because no matter what bullet you use (and as you pointed out) they are all rated to perform within certain parameters, parameters that are normally defined by the bullet's speed at time of impact because speed determines the amount of energy the bullet will have on target. Since the energy on target determines how the bullet will perform you have to be cognizant of how much energy you have at the muzzle.
You also haven't mentioned the fact that heavier bullets retain their velocities much longer due to their increased momentum. So I'll always send a heavier bullet out of the muzzle as long as I can start out with the velocity and energy that I need for the job.
It seems to me that your perspective is influencing your interpretation of what was asked. I think I understand what you are trying to say but you are all over the place with your reasoning. It seems to me that you are viewing the situation as a question of how well a bullet penetrates living tissue and that's not what the original poster was concerned with. I'm sure that most of us appreciate what you are attempting to say but honestly it's not that complex of a question. In regards to how much sheetrock a bullet will penetrate, yes, weight is pretty much all you have to worry about.
The major premise the OP brings up is the existence of a something that can't be quantified. What is overpenetration in the first place?
It can't be defined unless you are very carefully setting up a specific set of circumstances. Like, the FBI protocol for handgun ammo, which, ironically, requires both "limited penetration" of the human body but also "through and through penetration of windshield glass at an angle, layers of sheet metal, or ballistic gel wrapped in layers of Carhartt canvas, which as we all know, is bullet proof.
Yeah, sure.
What many who ask the OP's question want to know is based on a good idea - they don't want to shoot thru a wall and recognize it will happen - with an innocent person behind it who gets struck by a still powerful bullet. The point of posts and links about the Box o Truth is that there is NO commercially available ammo that can penetrate a human being at least twelve inches - minimum to strike a vital organ or blood vessel - and yet stop dead short of exiting our typically flimsy American construction.
We live in cardboard houses folks, nuttin is going to stop a bullet. And cinder block isn't much better. We need to stop focusing on an ephemeral quality that can't be engineered and deal with the complete lack of knowledge and training that supports it. No, there is no ammo that magically kills intruders but never harms your kids in their bedroom. Not to forget - why would you point your gun in the direction where they might be hiding behind a wall? Knowing your lanes of fire is highly important - you can choose them and need to because ammo will penetrate regardless.
Food for thought, the subject is more than just what gun or ammo. It's really about how to keep them out in the first place, then not allowing them to shoot if at all. They are the danger and we should focus on minimizing their actions, not our defense.
It can't be defined unless you are very carefully setting up a specific set of circumstances. Like, the FBI protocol for handgun ammo, which, ironically, requires both "limited penetration" of the human body but also "through and through penetration of windshield glass at an angle, layers of sheet metal, or ballistic gel wrapped in layers of Carhartt canvas, which as we all know, is bullet proof.
Yeah, sure.
What many who ask the OP's question want to know is based on a good idea - they don't want to shoot thru a wall and recognize it will happen - with an innocent person behind it who gets struck by a still powerful bullet. The point of posts and links about the Box o Truth is that there is NO commercially available ammo that can penetrate a human being at least twelve inches - minimum to strike a vital organ or blood vessel - and yet stop dead short of exiting our typically flimsy American construction.
We live in cardboard houses folks, nuttin is going to stop a bullet. And cinder block isn't much better. We need to stop focusing on an ephemeral quality that can't be engineered and deal with the complete lack of knowledge and training that supports it. No, there is no ammo that magically kills intruders but never harms your kids in their bedroom. Not to forget - why would you point your gun in the direction where they might be hiding behind a wall? Knowing your lanes of fire is highly important - you can choose them and need to because ammo will penetrate regardless.
Food for thought, the subject is more than just what gun or ammo. It's really about how to keep them out in the first place, then not allowing them to shoot if at all. They are the danger and we should focus on minimizing their actions, not our defense.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
As near as I can tell from many threads on the subject, most folks realize that almost any load package will go through an interior wall in modern housing. The concern for "over-penetration" seems to be about a bullet going through an exterior wall and into a neighbor or the neighbor's house.
Short answer, if you miss your target, it does not matter what you shooting short of birdshot. 5.56 rifle rounds may over penetrate even after hitting the target, depending on construction, weight, velocity and how much of the target it has to go through. Go read the ammo oracle over at ar15.com for a more detailed answer.
By what?
Please take a moment and clarify your post.
- What are you anticipating shooting into?
- What do you mean when you say, "Over-Penetrate"?
- What configuration bullet are you planning to use?
- At what angle will is the bullet likely to strike the target?
Hanzo581
Member
You guys are overthinking this whole thing. Just line all your walls with AR500 steel.
GunnyUSMC
Member
Doesn't everyone already do that?
hdwhit How much clarification does one need to answer a simple question. The OP is wondering if lighter bullets will be deflected, and if heavier bullets will over penetration in a house.
Most homes and apartments built in the last 50 years have inner walls made of 2x4s and drywall.
We all know that just about any 5.56 ammo will go through a standard wall even if it hits a 2x4.
But if the OP lives in a medieval castle he will have to worry about bullets ricocheting off the stone walls.
I asked this question more out of a pure physics train of thought than as an actual application to the real world. That said, yes I understand that no load is able to disable bad guys but not hurt innocents. I also know that knowing good shooting lanes, training, and avoiding confrontation altogether are more important. That doesn't change the fact, that all else being equal, some loads will be better than others. In other words, the right bullet may be the least important part of the equation, but it is still part of the equation; the more wise will recognize that other factors are more important but not ignore this aspect. I also don't believe that I need to define over-penetration; I think for the common citizen it means the load that will have a decent chance of disabling the bad guy without penetrating more layers of common building material than is absolutely necessary. Obviously I think we can all agree that some loads have too much penetration potential vs. others with regards to common building materials in the U.S. (wood frames and sheetrock) assuming there are innocent people nearby behind those materials.
As far as doing some testing, I'd love to but unfortunately the range closest to me doesn't allow such things.
hdwhit,
I'm assuming common building materials like sheetrock, 2x4, and even light tile. I'm not asking about a specific bullet type, but to make it easy let's assume 55gr. FMJ (M193 clones) vs. a 64gr. FMJ. I have no idea what angle. Do you think the bullets will penetrate roughly equally at some angles, but drastically different at others? If so, which angles?
As far as doing some testing, I'd love to but unfortunately the range closest to me doesn't allow such things.
hdwhit,
I'm assuming common building materials like sheetrock, 2x4, and even light tile. I'm not asking about a specific bullet type, but to make it easy let's assume 55gr. FMJ (M193 clones) vs. a 64gr. FMJ. I have no idea what angle. Do you think the bullets will penetrate roughly equally at some angles, but drastically different at others? If so, which angles?
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