Are modern Mannlicher-stocked rifles less accurate?

[I6turbo]

I have seen several "claims" that full-stock Mannlicher style centerfire rifles tend to drift from zero when they are fired several times in succession (thereby heating the barrel), such as at a shooting range. It makes sense, particularly if the barrel of the gun in question is somehow anchored to the stock as they usually are. However, I've also heard a report or two from people who owned CZ or Ruger full-stock centerfire rifles who claim that their full-stock guns shoot more or less with the same accuracy as their standard-stocked counterparts, even with repeated firing in a short timeframe.

I would love to hear from anyone with first-hand experience on this topic, whether you've just owned and/or fired a Mannlicher style gun in a setting that gave you the opportunity to gauge the effect (or lack thereof), or especially if you've owned a pair of otherwise similar guns in the same caliber such as an M77 and M77RSI, or CZ 527 and CZ527FS, etc.

I'm considering buying a full stock .223, 7.62 x 39, or .308, and wondering about this matter. I have a full stock .22 LR and like many others have reported, I do not see any real zero-shifting effect of repeated firing, but of course a .22 LR generates far, far less heat in the barrel than a centerfire.

Any actual experience or information you might share will be much appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[DPris]

A CZ 6.5 didn't show vertical stringing, my CZ .22 doesn't.
I regret not keeping that 6.5...
Denis

 

[GooseGestapo]

Properly bedded in a good piece of wood, they are no less accurate than conventionally bedded rifles.
However, due to anomalies in the wood, and with long term shrinkage and swelling of unsealed grain, a less than ideal piece of wood can warp and affect accuracy.

The amount of affect is hard to predict. The weight (thickness) of the barrel and thickness and twist in the grain of the wood will also determine how much pressure the stock puts against the barrel.

I've seen some marvelously crafted stocks in highly suitable wood. One was a Mod 93 Mauser that had a 20" E.R.Shaw barrel of medium heavy contour bedded in a birds-eye maple stock (dense and hard as woodpecker lips) that was marvelously accurate. (7x57Mauser).
I've also seen some Ruger M77 Internationals that would shoot 5-7" groups (on a good day) and had obviously "bent" wood in the forends, with one side touching, the other not.... How much of this was due to stock problems and how much was due to barrel "issues" not related to the Mannlicher stock is hard to say.....

An aquaintance has a Sako in .308 in a full length stock that he says shoots 1-hole groups at 100yds with a common match load w/168gr Sierra BtHpt's. I haven't seen it do so, but I've seen the rifle and know the individual to be reliable. I have no doubt that it shoots as good as it looks... A very beautiful rifle, indeed.

 

[jmr40]

Trying to completely seal any wood stock is an exercise in fuility. Even if you could find a way to completely seal the stock, you are sealing moisture inside the stock as well as keeping moisture out.

When wood leaves the kiln the moisture content by weight is 15-20%. Remove any more moisture than that and the stock will be so brittle it would break very easily.

Even if you do completely seal the stock, the moisure inside swells and contracts as temperature, humidity and altitude change. It will do this setting inside your gunsafe in a climate controlled house.

Glass bedding the action helps. Either a generous free float, or full length bedding the barrel also helps. Individual pieces of wood will vary greatly also. Some will not cause enough of a difference for most to ever notice. I've seen others change the point of impact by several inches while driving from Georgia at roughly 500 ft above sea level to Colorado at 7000 ft above sea level.

The other thing I've noticed about wood stocks. They are just as accurate as the wood changes. All I've worked with still shot just as well, but the POI changes as the stock changes because of environmental conditions.

I have no personal exprience with Mannlicher stocks, but would imagine that the more wood in close proximity to the barrel would make things more complicated.

 

[rcmodel]

Keep in mind the early Mannlicher stocked Mannlicher rifles were really open-sighted carbines designed for hunting & stalking.

Precision accuracy or shooting long strings at the bench was not intended, or necessary for the use they were designed for.

Consider them the fast handling Winchester 30-30 carbine of Europe if you will.

rc

 

[RPRNY]

RCMODEL said

Keep in mind the early Mannlicher stocked Mannlicher rifles were really open-sighted carbines designed for hunting & stalking.

Precision accuracy or shooting long strings at the bench was not intended, or necessary for the use they were designed for.

Consider them the fast handling Winchester 30-30 carbine of Europe if you will.

I think this is an excellent observation and that last line may help explain why I love Mannlicher stocked guns so much.

In fact, the German speaking world doesn't call them "Mannlicher" stocked or style, they call them Stutzen which means "shortened" or "cut" which describes the short carbine style flintlocks that emerged in Southern Germany and the Austrian Alps. While one theory incorrectly suggests that the Stutzen was so stocked so that it could be wielded like a walking stick in the mountains, that idea just doesn't hold water. Given the value of a rifle, it seems much more likely that the full stock carbine emerged to give greater maneuverability to the hunter while protecting the barrel from rock strikes.

In any event, as rcmodel suggests, these original mountain rifles were not intended to shoot long strings from a bench, but to be used as hunting rifles. I like the 30-30 carbine comparison a lot!

So, unless you free float (as I have done) or glass bed the barrel, I think movements in POI could be reasonably predicted as an issue with full length wood stocks.


Here's my Stutzen, fresh back from checkering:

 

[browningguy]

I own Ruger and Sako full stocked guns and they both of mine start walking the bullets, the Ruger after 3 and the Sako after 5-6. I guess you might stop it with full length bedding or trying to free float everything but it's not what they are made for. If I want to shoot 10 or 20 shot strings I break out a heavy barrelled bench gun.

 

[rcmodel]

Here's my Stutzen, fresh back from checkering:

Nice!
Tell us more!

rc

 

[RPRNY]

It's an H&R Handi break action that I assembled over the Winter. SB2 receiver, 45LC barrel from a Buffalo Classic carbine (20") reamed to 454 Casull. I got a semi finished stock set from Gunstocks, found NECG hardware for the steel nose cap and front swivel and spent a long time finishing the stock and forend working up a TruOil finish.

300 gr XTP and a good dose of H110 make for a nice thumper with @ 2200 fps at muzzle and accuracy out to 125 yards in Casull and 7.5 grs of Trail Boss under 185 gr cast SWC makes for a nice plinker and varminter.

 

[ball3006]

I have a 95 Mauser full stocked carbine I built back in the 60s that has no issues at all. Still a fine shooting short range carbine. It has been re-barreled to 308 and carries a 3x steel tube Weaver K-3...chris3

 

[I6turbo]

Thanks all, for the input thus far. It seems that the responses here mirror what I've seen in general; that there are a variety of experiences out there and no clear cut answer, some indicating that the full stock may be a little more inclined to shift the poi as they warm up, and some (a few more, I believe) who haven't experienced it with their FS guns. I like those guns so much that I may be inclined to give one of the CZ's a try and hope it's a good shooter.