Are New Cartridges Killing Old Cartridges or Is New Bullet Design and Technology?

WisBorn

WisBorn

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A couple of Field And Stream articles caught my eye this morning. One about the 35 caliber cartridges going into extinction. The other was Best Elk Cartridges.
The Elk cartridges article included a few newer cartridges, but didn't include old favorites like 35 Whelen.

I'm a firm believer that everything has a life and technology will replace old standards with new and improved products.
Every time I turn around there is a video or article that the 30-06 is going obsolete. Well it is still in the top ten list but seldom #1. The 308 seems to have a lesser following than it used to being replaced by the 6.5 cm.

I have wanted to buy a 8mm Remington Mag for over 30 years, but never special ordered one. With virtually no factory ammo for it I may let that dream elk rifle just sunset as the cartridge is going to be a reloaders cartridge only.

Please share your thoughts....
 
Gun rags and ammo/rifle makers have to have something new to sell and talk about. So they keep coming out with new and “better” cartridges. This one is 50 fps faster than that one. This one allows shooting 40 yards further before it goes transsonic. This one is shiny!

If you need an excuse to buy another rifle this is a good thing.

P.S. reloading is pretty straightforward and solves a lot of ammo availability problems
 
I find your thoughts on the .308 to be very interesting.

I am in the (slow) process of building an AR-10 purely to have one, a duty/SHTF/catch all rifle for the rural areas of South East Kansas. I’m not a huge AR fan but I think every red blooded American should own one or two.

I have debated what cartridge to get it in. I want the cartridge I get it in to be the most readily available cartridge (without reloading) today and for the next 10 years or so.

I think I agree with you that 6.5 Creed is really starting to creep up on the old .308 for availability. I still have time to decide. Just trying to predict the future.
 
"No cause is lost if there is but one fool left to fight for it." -William Turner

There are very few modern boxer primed cartridges that are truly dead if you are but a reloader. Even if you are not a reloader the internet gives you access to a huge array of boutique manufacturers out there. With this unpresidented access to suppliers there are few cartridges that you cannot find at least one of these little manufactures that produces the cartridge. It is unlikely to be cheap and options might be limited but it is frequently available.
 
Remember when .30-30 dethroned .44-40?

Those stinking trendy kids and their fancy new .30-30. It's all hype, it won't last. Just marketing fodder.

On a serious note, Western hunting has turned into almost an extreme sport with extreme athletes and hot new gear. The culture is shifting which I do think will shift the gear quicker than normal.
 
I’m betting I have 15-20 guns shooting calibers that are at least close to, or over 100 years old. And that doesn’t include .22LR. Probably more.

Snaps suspenders, laughs and reaches for beer can labeled in ounces which was projected to be replaced by metric measurements at least a half century ago.
 
I think shooters are becoming better educated.

The 6.5X55, 7X57 and 9X19 were developed in the 1890's and for what 95% of shooters do we haven't developed anything better. The current 6.5CM is just an evolution of the 6.5X55, the 7-08 is just an evolution of the 7X57. You COULD make an argument that the originals are slightly better, but not with factory rifles and ammo. Over the last 120-130 years there have been so many slight variations in both rifle and ammo specs with the originals that it really does make sense to just use the modern versions unless you just like to tinker.

But we're Americans. We do everything bigger here. The 9mm wasn't big enough, the 7X57 wasn't big enough, so we chose 45ACP pistols and 30-06 rifles. It took 100 years, but people are finally coming around to the idea that bigger isn't necessarily better. 9mm is now the king of handgun cartridges, and the most popular rifle cartridges mimic the performance of the 1st smokeless powder cartridges. But with modern bullets.

There is nothing in North America that requires anything bigger than 7mm or 30 caliber. But SOME Americans have always been fascinated with 35 caliber. The problem is that they almost always shoot the same bullet weights in 35 caliber that they could shoot in 30 caliber. Anything a 225-250 gr 35 caliber bullet does a 200 or 220 gr 30 caliber with similar powder charges does just as well if not better. The 35 Whelen is only marginally better than 30-06, and only when used with 275 gr bullets. The next logical step up in performance above 7mm or 30 caliber is 375 caliber.

This is why none of the 35's or 33's have ever been popular. But some guys are convinced the bigger hole is worth something. A 35 caliber hole is less than the thickness of a dime larger than a 30 caliber hole. Once you figure that out it is easy to understand why.

It is modern loads that are killing off 30-06 and 270. Modern 308 loads beat WW-1 30-06 performance by 200-300 fps. Of course, modern 30-06 loads will beat WW-1 loads by as much as 400 fps, but now you're approaching 300 WM performance and recoil. Most guys who want that much power are now skipping over 30-06 and going to 300 WM. And when you compare 6.5CM to 270 you see very similar performance on game with much less recoil and better accuracy.
 
Some like new and "improved," others like myself have found that sweet spot, that just doesn't seem like it will ever be replaced for my needs.

If one is a reloader and has picked a good cartridge; these new cartridges just are vying for another spot dancing on the head of a needle.

Pick a recoil you can tolerate, study the efficiency of the cartridges that fall within that recoil category, decide on a caliber of projectile that fits your needs/uses and pick the best cartridge for oneself.

Then focus on making that chambering do exactly what you want of it with regards to what rifle to purchase/have built, different loads for different purposes, and most of all time behind the trigger.

And invest your saved money not chasing all the new and "improved," and invest in gun companies that sell the new and "improved." :D
 
The various .35s have never been very popular during my lifetime, and conversely have been "going extinct" for just about as long! And magazines like Field & Stream have been writing that article the whole time.

It seems to me that there are constants in the shooting game, with the .30-'06 being one of them. Then there are the "come and go" cartridges like the 7mm Magnum. The latter are almost always perfectly fine cartridges (though often bigger and louder than strictly necessary) but they seem to attract a certain type of personality: one that generally believes that newer must be better, and doesn't have much interest in the old tried-and-true. Sometimes those cartridges maintain significant popularity, but quite often they end up as footnotes.

The current iteration of that cartridge is probably the 6.5 Creed, which is also a fine cartridge (and which also bucks the "bigger and louder" trend). Time will tell whether it becomes a mainstay or a footnote, but I'll pretty much guarantee that something else will be along to replace it sooner or later.

Meanwhile, the .30-'06 will keep doing the same fine job it's been doing for the last hundred years or so.
 
Last edited:
.38 Special said:
Meanwhile, the .30-'06 will keep doing the same fine job it's been doing for the last hundred years or so.
Click to expand...

As someone who no longer owns a 30-06, the statement above would not surprise me in the least. The 30-06 is one a handful of cartridges that I still recommend quite a bit for a do all hunting cartridge; hard to argue with it's merits.
 
WisBorn said:
I have wanted to buy a 8mm Remington Mag for over 30 years, but never special ordered one. With virtually no factory ammo for it I may let that dream elk rifle just sunset as the cartridge is going to be a reloaders cartridge only.
Click to expand...

At least Nosler still makes brass for it. Nosler really likes 8mm and it’s descendants, especially 7mm STW and 358 STA.

What more modern cartridges have done is placed tight specs on chambers in rifles and ammunition sold. Couple that with modern heavy for caliber long bullets and a faster twist barrel and you have a very precise rifle and ammo combination YOU CAN BUY OFF THE SHELF.

That is the magic, be it marketing or manufacturing.
 
mcb said:
There are very few modern boxer primed cartridges that are truly dead if you are but a reloader.
Click to expand...

If the rifles (and pistols) are out there, it just takes that one person to keep it, or pick it up at a gun show, to revive it. I shoot some 'dead' cartridges... .348WCF and .41MAG. I'm not going to add .308 to that list juuuuuust yet, and I'm not anywhere near saying .45-70 is waning in popularity. Reloading keeps them alive, and I'm able to find components readily available, so... And friends of mine shoot far more 'dead' cartridges than I do, most with that 'dead' black powder stuff. I don't get that carried away, however.

JeeperCreeper said:
It's all hype, it won't last. Just marketing fodder.
Click to expand...

They said that about smokeless powder back in the day, too... ;)


I don't think the 6.5CM, for example, is going to take the .308 (...and 270, et al...) to extinction, in much the same way as other cartridges never took the .30-06 there... and that's including the .308.

I also look at firearm manufacturers... if they are producing firearms in specific cartridges, there's a reason for it. S&W isn't making revolvers in .401 SuperMag, but they are making the .41MAG, and Henry is making (has made...) rifles in them recently. There is no doubt the .45-70 is popular... Ruger chose to kick their first 'Marlin' out in it. There's plenty of examples.


dh1633pm said:
The old will become the new new.
Click to expand...

I say that a lot... What's old is new again. TV shows. Music. Movies. Automobiles. Firearms. The list goes on.
 
You either evolve and change with the times or go extinct. Especially when it comes to firearms. There HAS to be innovation. Because it's the only consumer product I can think of that you can buy use and take care of and it's still functioning 100yrs later, or more. If there's nothing new, nothing to get people interested and at the range, there eventually won't be anything at all.
 
"Please share your thoughts" he says ...

Okay. Segmented market. I think there used to be two major segments in the shooting community. It would be easy to categorize them as "hunters" vs "target shooters," but I'd rather posit a difference between those who were satisfied with the tried and true (both hunters and target shooters) and those who liked to play on the edges--the wildcatters and experimenters who enjoyed trying to improve performance, regardless of the application. "Back in the day," the first group overwhelmingly outnumbered the second. Sometimes the second developed something that caught on, and sometimes the military or law enforcement funded a particular round of innovation, but there still remained that general distinction between "the .30-06 is good enough" and "let's see if I can develop a more effective and efficient alternative."

Enter digital technology, which results in two parallel and significant developments. First is the ability to model new cartridges built of new long-for-caliber high-BC projectiles fired from fast-twist barrels using a variety of new propellants, no doubt themselves developed through significant modeling. It's just way easier to take what's known and develop a promising cartridge using very sophisticated models. We can model internal ballistics, external ballistics, terminal ballistics, etc., in grand ways we couldn't before computers. Heck, we hobbyists can model safe and effective loads in the absence of published loading data using QuickLoad or Gordon's Reloading Tool. The manufacturers can do this on steroids. There is just a hugely improved ability to model and test new cartridges using all kinds of parameters (including acceptable recoil) than was once possible. Couple that with superior metallurgy, manufacturing processes, etc., and you have inexpensive rifles like the Ruger American that can shoot as accurately as what once required a custom rifle. Not to mention what custom manufacturers are able to do today. It all amazes me.

Second, mass marketing. And I'm not just talking about the ability of companies to better understand their customers' needs and wants and the ability to create products that satisfy those needs and wants. I'm talking about a generation of people who have grown up hungry for the latest and greatest, who race to buy the newest iPhone, buy overpriced coffee at a very sophisticated chain store, and are style and brand conscious. As these people get into shooting, they neither know nor care about those old, classic cartridges that were "good enough."

Put those two together and you see some of the culture clash that accompanied the introduction of the 6.5 Creedmoor. It's a fantastic cartridge that does what it was designed to do amazingly well. Is it order of magnitude better than some of the cartridges it threatens to displace? Of course not. But it is better, and there are a whole lot of people for whom that matters, ever if they are not experienced or high volume shooters.

Although I'm a younger boomer, I am susceptible to the allure of new and effective design. So I'm itching to build a 7mm PRC, which will no doubt in time totally kill off the 7mm Remington Magnum, which is certainly "good enough" for its intended purpose.
 
KansasTrapper77 said:
I find your thoughts on the .308 to be very interesting.

I am in the (slow) process of building an AR-10 purely to have one, a duty/SHTF/catch all rifle for the rural areas of South East Kansas. I’m not a huge AR fan but I think every red blooded American should own one or two.

I have debated what cartridge to get it in. I want the cartridge I get it in to be the most readily available cartridge (without reloading) today and for the next 10 years or so.

I think I agree with you that 6.5 Creed is really starting to creep up on the old .308 for availability. I still have time to decide. Just trying to predict the future.
Click to expand...
I think the 308 is a great all around rifle cartridge! I would and have recommended it as the best start with stay with cartridge on the market!!!
I do think the 6.5 has cut into its market a little.
Long live the 308!!!!
 
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