Are New Cartridges Killing Old Cartridges or Is New Bullet Design and Technology?

The US firearms market is mature..outside of recent, political driven drabble that cause gun sales to spike from popular panic..generally sales are steady, but not expansive.

This is why we are going through ammo shortages. They don't want to spend money to expand capacity, when they know the markets will calm down..then they are stuck with paying for stuff they don't need anymore.

My point is saying all this...the gun companies want to get your attention. Only so many ways you can make a bolt action/ slide action/ level action/semi auto better.
So..it's easier to create a SHINY NEW CALIBER!
Market the heck out of it...make everything think it makes whatever they got now obsolete. Say it can do everything better...Yada Yada yada...

It's all hype. I fell for it myself back in 2000 when the super magnum craze hit. Winchester and Remington competing for the new, super faster, harder hitter shoulder breaker. Then Weatherby did what it always does...came in and topped everyone again.
I invested much into 300 RUM.

In reality...none of them are a whole lot better than good old 300 win mag.

Same goes with this 6.5 or 6...Creed crap...or all this PRC.....

Are they really any better than what they say they are replacing? Not really. Not to the average hunter/ shooter. They won't do anything something older can't do too...

It's all marketing and hype.

All these predictions that, this, that, or this other cartridge is going away....but never does.

Bahhh.....

To each their own. I'm tired of it myself.
 
When I was choosing a rifle for my Nilgai hunt, I was thinking 300 WSM. Something powerful enough to kill a potential 600lb antelope but also something that would have all around use.

Well, it was difficult to find a 300 WSM in a LH rifle that fit my criteria. So, I “compromised”. I found another rifle that fit my criteria to a T. Even the cartridge was ballistically identical to the 300 WSM. What was it?

The 300 Winchester Magnum of course. But guess what, as popular as the 300 WSM is, the 300WM has loads more ammo options for the non-hand loader. There sure wasn’t a 200 gr option that I could find for 300 WSM. There were several for 300 WM.

That old belted case cartridge is still the real deal. Outdated belt and the heavy and slow long action platform to boot. It was miraculously still able to make a coherent group size. I didn’t think it possible. I was able to shoot 2 deer in quick succession even with that slow long action.

It had one of those trendy muzzle devices on it too which I replaced with a thread protector.

Get this. It actually killed a Nilgai too. One shot even.

None of this is to say newer is bad or worse than the the traditional favorites. I am eyeballing a 6.5 Creed right now and am a paycheck away from a 7mm PRC barrel for for a bare action. The only reason I got the 300 WM above was because of availability of gun and ammo and I do not regret it.
 
Times, they are a-changin.......

Hunting is becoming shooting sports, bullets are getting longer, cases shorter, fatter....efficiency is touted as king.....

If anything is "killing off" (I think reducing market share is probably a better term) the older cartridges, I think it's a change in perception and usage.
I don't know a single hunter that only owns one rifle, Even guys that only hunt one species of animal.
I also know far fewer hunters who are not also shooters than there were in the past.
Far MORE shooters that arnt hunters too.
 
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WisBorn said:
Did the 7mm Magnum go somewhere????
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Well, yeah. It went from being the latest thing that had all the big men on campus rolling their shoulders and telling extravagant lies to being just another useful but not particularly exceptional cartridge.

Like the "six five Creed", about five years from now. :evil:
 
WisBorn said:
didn't include old favorites like 35 Whelen.
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There seem to be more of us which remember the 35 Whelen so fondly than there ever were which owned and hunted it when it supposedly would have been in its prime. It’s certainly a nostalgic favorite, but I’m not sure it would have ever been a market favorite actually being used in the field.

But to the larger question at hand - it’s everything and nothing, all at once. Market trends are what they are. Hunting is declining and has been now for 3 generations. Sport hunting hit its stride post-War, but nearly immediately began declining in the generations thereafter. So what we like to remember as “Classic hunting cartridges” remain to be most fondly remembered, far beyond their use.

In the early 2000’s, we saw a huge marketing push for magnum hunting cartridges, the WSM’s & RSAUM’s, full length RUM’s, 204 Ruger, subsequently the RCM’s and Ruger (safari) Magnums - and that was cool among hunters for a few years. We also saw divergence in the AR market from the singular 5.56/223 offerings into the alternative Grendel and SPC, and Beowulf, dramatically accelerated by the coyote hunting boom of the 2000’s and early 2010’s. Following Sandy Hook in 2012, however, AR’s were flying off of the shelves, and we saw there also acceleration of long range SPORT shooting, using short action cartridges like the 6.5 creed.

Now, we have bifurcated marketing - or trifurcated - we have sport shooting markets driving things like 6 GT, 22 Creedmoor, etc, the hunting market drawing things like 28 Nosler, the Hornady PRC’s, and then we have the AR market pulling forth the 6 ARC, 22 Nosler, 224 Valkyrie…

What was realized, across the board, in the last 20-30yrs, was the death of the “long range laser. No more advertising for that 3000+ fps cartridge using light for caliber, light for cartridge capacity bullets in slow twist barrels and cases too long to fit more appropriately weighted bullets into their mag lengths. So we’ve seen odd-lengths like the Mauser cartridges fall off even farther, 243win and 260rem be supplanted, 6 ARC even pushing out 6.5 Grendel, 22-250 and 220 swift being driven out by 5.56, 25-06 being shoved aside by 25 Creed, 28 Nosler and 6.5 and 7 PRC boxing out 270 win and 7Rm, 300wm falling aside to 300 PrC…

It’s not advertising, as most folks will dismissively claim - that game is long over, as shooters know better these days than to trust Weatherby’s advertising that their rounds were so powerful that they’d kill game even without hitting vitals - it’s MARKETING. Marketing is an analytical process of identifying that which consumers of a given market are wanting, then developing products to meet those desires, and strategically advertising the desired products to those markets.

Today, the typically gunbuyers don’t want a 22-250 which flies like a wiffle ball and pumps out 45grn bullets at 4000fps, but can’t handle 75grn bullets. They don’t want a 3.4” cartridge which eats 60grn of powder to get a 140grn bullet with a .40G1 BC up to 2950fps when they can get 2800 from 42grn powder behind the same bullet weight, but with a .59G1… just the same as guys aren’t buying the little Toyota light-half pickups any more with itty bitty 4 bangers that still only got 17mpg and couldn’t pull a trailer, the market simply changed away from the products. Shooters and hunters aren’t in love with the idea of pie plate sized groups at 100yrds any more, and most folks stopped wanting iron sights and lead pointed soft points because of it…

The world moves. Markets move with it. Manufacturers have to hunt where the Buffalo herd, or they won’t have Buffalo to hunt.
 
Varminterror said:
7 Rem mag has largely only been popular with the millennial generation, and late Gen Xers, because of the market confusion when the hoopla around the superior Remington ULTRA Mags came out 20yrs ago and folks didn’t realize the magazines weren’t talking about the 7 Rem mag.
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I believe that the 7rm gained its following because of a couple of factors
1) The recoil is similar to the 30-06. Most people can handle the recoil.
2) A flat shooting trajectory with more power than the 270.
3) Everyone wanted a Western rifle. The 7rm is responsible for killing the 264 win mag.
 
I really don't know if new cartridges are killing the old. Not from where I stand. As an old fogey I do not have any use for new cartridge firearms. I've been shooting the same boring calibers all my life, 30-30, 30-06, and 45-70, 45 acp, and .357 magnum, and to this day they still get the job done. Not saying the new stuff is not any good, because some of them are better, go faster, and are able to leap tall buildings in a single bounce but what I shoot, has been proven and reliable .
 
There are so many interesting cartridges, dead, old, and new out there and not all of them are interesting simply because of some super wiz-bang performance aspect. Some new cartridges are built to bring a particular performance level to a different newer platform. It occurs less often now days, but some new cartridges dictate a new platform to some degree.

I have bought some guns because of the interesting cartridge they where chambered in and some cartridges because of the interesting gun was chambered for it. As a long time reloader the popularity of the cartridge has almost no bearing on whether I add a new cartridge to my collections. Why I have chosen a particular gun or cartridge is as unique as the cartridge or gun. The only time I might choose a cartridge/gun based partially on popularity would be if the gun was something I was going to shoot a heap of in competition. This would be to help support the larger volume of use and spare parts. But for a hunting cartridge the more unique and interesting the better and popularity be damned.

The past several years I have done nearly all my rifle hunting with three cartridges that all became SAAMI cartridge in 2007 or newer. One is already a "dead" cartridge. My primary carry handguns (CCW and woods) are all using cartridges that predate 1900, one still popular the other two supposedly dead. Despite that dead status I can still occasionally find commercial ammo and reloading components are available.

This idea that new cartridges kill old ones does not hold a lot of water for me. Almost all of the new cartridges that make it to a commercial success, make it because they do something unique that older cartridge could not do even if that something unique is very niche or even only marginal, if they make it as a commercial success they did so because that niche/margin was big enough.
 
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Very few modern cartridges provide any sort of tangible benefit for most shooters. Yes, they may do a niche task better than an older standby, but their general practical utility is not any greater, and they can be LESS useful in broad scenarios.
 
The revenue stream has to keep flowing and the best way to do that is with new calibers and equipment to shoot them even if there is little or no difference between the old stuff. The firearms industry doesn't mind dusting off old stuff and re-hyping it either. If I were in the industry I would do the same. Gunriters gotta rite to get paid and aren't above exaggerating claims. Just one "it ain't worth a tinker's damn" article and you are done. All in all I find it interesting and fun even if my one deer and elk rifle is the same "ol outdated and almost obsolete by some claims 30-06 I started with many long years ago. Not one animal I ever shot with it got away.
 
LoonWulf said:
Hunting is becoming shooting sports
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I like that. How true.

Rifle cartridges are constantly evolving, just more choices now. Many, if not most of the new stuff is dying on the vine. A few good ones are rising to the top, 6.5 Creed for example.

I have a 1941 Belding and Mull loading manual, and it's interesting to go back, and see what was available then. 257Bob, 270 Win, 7x57,30-06 8x57 are still around and viable. 250 Sav, 256 Newton, .303, 30-40, 7.62 Russian are pretty dead but can still be found. Too many old lever gun cartridges to mention. Interesting dinosaurs: 6mm USNavy, 30 Newton and 35 Newton. The 30 and 35 Newtons were invented in 1913 on a .525 rim diameter case; the 30 Newton pushes 300WM performance. But they never stuck. Go figure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30_Newton
 
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LoonWulf said:
Times, they are a-changin.......

Hunting is becoming shooting sports, bullets are getting longer, cases shorter, fatter....efficiency is touted as king.....

If anything is "killing off" (I think reducing market share is probably a better term) the older cartridges, I think it's a change in perception and usage.
I don't know a single hunter that only owns one rifle, Even guys that only hunt one species of animal.
I also know far fewer hunters who are not also shooters than there were in the past.
Far MORE shooters that arnt hunters too.
Click to expand...
Howdy. I only have 1 big game rifle. A Winchester 94. I had two but got in a tight spot and sold it. But I do hunt with my handgun too so there is that. And I technically have another rifle... a 22.

I like to get to know a gun, can’t do that if you have so many you can’t decide what to take with you.
 
I going to say pretty much the same as everyone else. 50 or 60 years ago or more, most people bought rifles for hunting. Thye couldn't afford multiple rifles either. They pretty much bought what their friends hunted with which was largely 30-06 or 30-30. There were other popular cartridges hawked by gun magazines like the .270 and the myth that it shot much flatter and faster. Lots of cartridges had a strong following too. As time went on things changed. People became more affluent, target shooting increased as the focus of new buyers and cartridges more suited to it like the .308. AR's and Ak type rifles became popular increasing purely recreation shooting which led to more target shooting. Cowboy shooting increased the interest in old black powder shooting. But the main difference I think is the internet increasing information about long distance shooting and specialty cartridges. I think target shooting and reloading have taken over the market as well as some hunters interested in long distance shooting on game as opposed to traditional hunters. New cartridges have been developed for this market that overcome the slight limitations of old cartridges. This goes hand in hand with the sniper fantasy from video games and movies etc. Then there is the enjoyment of shooting smaller groups farther away. Lot's of us are happy with old cartridges but many want the cutting edge too. I think we are in the golden age of shooting now.
 
mcb said:
"No cause is lost if there is but one fool left to fight for it." -William Turner

There are very few modern boxer primed cartridges that are truly dead if you are but a reloader. Even if you are not a reloader the internet gives you access to a huge array of boutique manufacturers out there. With this unpresidented access to suppliers there are few cartridges that you cannot find at least one of these little manufactures that produces the cartridge. It is unlikely to be cheap and options might be limited but it is frequently available.
Click to expand...

Even obsolete rimfire cartridges like 41 Swiss aren't truly dead, though in my opinion they just aren't worth the time and effort required to reload them. I'll just stick to modern cartridges like the 577/450 Martini Henry.
 
Megawatt maker said:
It's all hype. I fell for it myself back in 2000 when the super magnum craze hit. Winchester and Remington competing for the new, super faster, harder hitter shoulder breaker. Then Weatherby did what it always does...came in and topped everyone again.
I invested much into 300 RUM.

In reality...none of them are a whole lot better than good old 300 win mag.
Click to expand...
Yeppers, and as you can probably tell, I have a soft spot for the "good old" 308 Norma Mag. Yet the 308 Norma Mag "came," and in just a few years "went" with the advent of the 300 Win Mag - which offers nearly identical performance.
It wasn't "new bullet design and technology" that essentially "killed" the 308 Norma Mag. It was simply that Winchester came up with a cartridge that offered nearly identical performance and started building factory rifles chambered for their "new" cartridge.
 
zdc1775 said:
Even obsolete rimfire cartridges like 41 Swiss aren't truly dead, though in my opinion they just aren't worth the time and effort required to reload them. I'll just stick to modern cartridges like the 577/450 Martini Henry.
Click to expand...

Totally understandable. It probably takes a bent mind to appreciate the end result of the efforts required to get one of these old-timers back in action. And let me stress that once you've falling into that particular rabbit hole, there's no going back :)

 
Dave DeLaurant said:
Totally understandable. It probably takes a bent mind to appreciate the end result of the efforts required to get one of these old-timers back in action. And let me stress that once you've falling into that particular rabbit hole, there's no going back :)

Click to expand...


No I get it, I went back to school and earned a Master's in Military History partially due to my fascination with old guns, and restoring and firing something like that Vetterli, an original Henry, or Spencer is truly an amazing experience, one that i have proudly been a part of several times.

My comment was really meant to be more tongue in cheek than anything else, hence why I called the 577/450 a modern cartridge. Though I will actually admit that in a lot of cases it really does make more sense to convert the rifle to centerfire.
 
.308 Norma said:
Yeppers, and as you can probably tell, I have a soft spot for the "good old" 308 Norma Mag. Yet the 308 Norma Mag "came," and in just a few years "went" with the advent of the 300 Win Mag - which offers nearly identical performance.
It wasn't "new bullet design and technology" that essentially "killed" the 308 Norma Mag. It was simply that Winchester came up with a cartridge that offered nearly identical performance and started building factory rifles chambered for their "new" cartridge.
Click to expand...
I'm with ya. I tied up a rather large bundle of cash by going ballz deep into 300 RUM. Younger dumber me thought that was THE ultimate do all end cartridge.
Here it is...22 years later..it's almost obsolete. I'm not even sure if anyone factory chambers for it outside limited runs.
I know brass is all but gone. I'm down to only finding the top end, ridiculous expensive Lapua and Nosler custom brass..at $116 bucks per 25....absolutely outrageous! It ain't the fakedemic that did it either...it was gone even before it started.

But alas..what do you do when you found you've dug yourself into a hole you can't get out of? Keep digging, of coarse!
 
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