Are New Rock Chuckers Sloppy?
- Thread starter GW Staar
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Let's clear up this China thing a little bit.
In the August 2006 Handloader magazine (issue 242), there is a write-up on RCBS's 57+ years of reloading. Author John Haviland toured RCBS's Oroville (CA) factory.
On page 30 is a photo of a bunch of RCBS IV press castings, captioned "these castings of reloading presses are imported from China by RCBS." In the article, Haviland describes RCBS's state-of-the-art CNC manufacturing plant where the castings are drilled and threaded. The rows of old-school drill presses & operators are long gone.
The author mentions the RC Supreme's centerless ground ram, which ensures the ram is truly round. CNC machines ensure that the holes for ram and dies are critically aligned. Haviland finishes by mentioning the RC Supreme can be accessorized with the Piggyback 4 feature, which turns the single stage into a progressive.
The plant manager also shares that if RCBS still made the now discontinued Junior press (introduced in 1963) as it did then - mostly by hand labour - the Junior would now cost $300. At time of writing, the Supreme was retailing for $155.95. Wow.
Reading the threads here and there, it is obvious that the market - most of us reloaders - shops on the basis of price, then features, then quality, then provenance. On that basis, RCBS & the others are doing a great job reconciling often conflicting wants.
You guys do know, I hope, that Boeing Aircraft operates an aircraft assembly plant in China.... The world has changed, and so have our jobs. It is that latter observation that concerns me the most - the loss of factory jobs and the economy's shift toward 'services'. Now being entirely off topic I'll shut up.
In the August 2006 Handloader magazine (issue 242), there is a write-up on RCBS's 57+ years of reloading. Author John Haviland toured RCBS's Oroville (CA) factory.
On page 30 is a photo of a bunch of RCBS IV press castings, captioned "these castings of reloading presses are imported from China by RCBS." In the article, Haviland describes RCBS's state-of-the-art CNC manufacturing plant where the castings are drilled and threaded. The rows of old-school drill presses & operators are long gone.
The author mentions the RC Supreme's centerless ground ram, which ensures the ram is truly round. CNC machines ensure that the holes for ram and dies are critically aligned. Haviland finishes by mentioning the RC Supreme can be accessorized with the Piggyback 4 feature, which turns the single stage into a progressive.
The plant manager also shares that if RCBS still made the now discontinued Junior press (introduced in 1963) as it did then - mostly by hand labour - the Junior would now cost $300. At time of writing, the Supreme was retailing for $155.95. Wow.
Reading the threads here and there, it is obvious that the market - most of us reloaders - shops on the basis of price, then features, then quality, then provenance. On that basis, RCBS & the others are doing a great job reconciling often conflicting wants.
You guys do know, I hope, that Boeing Aircraft operates an aircraft assembly plant in China.... The world has changed, and so have our jobs. It is that latter observation that concerns me the most - the loss of factory jobs and the economy's shift toward 'services'. Now being entirely off topic I'll shut up.
Here's a good on-topic thread from late 2006-early 2007.
The last post (p.3) sums it up for me.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=241195
The last post (p.3) sums it up for me.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=241195
altitude_19
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Such a vibration would promote wear on brake caliper o-rings and cause premature failure...similar effect on tie rods. How does linkage slop affect the press or what it does? IT DOES NOT.
It feels sloppy when you pull the handle. And, over time, the torque caused by the angled handle will prematurely wear out the linkage. On the other hand, presses where the handle moves in line with the ram feel pretty good despite the sloppy linkage and some, like Redding, dont have the slop.
Some people enjoy Reloading. Others see it as a chore. I enjoy assembling rounds just as much as shooting them. Using quality equipment enhances the experience.
ranger335v
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"The plant manager also shares that if RCBS still made the now discontinued Junior press (introduced in 1963) as it did then - mostly by hand labour - the Junior would now cost $300. At time of writing, the Supreme was retailing for $155.95. Wow."
That may well be true but it's irrelivant because it seems all makers are invested in modern tooling. What is relivant to those who are concerned about "American jobs" is that, so far as I KNOW, all other reloading tool makers are still doing everything here.
Lee's press body castings, both iron and aluminum, are made here and are also finished on CNC tooling so the accuracy of the fit and assembly is as precise as anyones. So is the strenght and durability of their comparable presses, while costing a LOT less than big green .
Times have indeed changed.
That may well be true but it's irrelivant because it seems all makers are invested in modern tooling. What is relivant to those who are concerned about "American jobs" is that, so far as I KNOW, all other reloading tool makers are still doing everything here.
Lee's press body castings, both iron and aluminum, are made here and are also finished on CNC tooling so the accuracy of the fit and assembly is as precise as anyones. So is the strenght and durability of their comparable presses, while costing a LOT less than big green .
Times have indeed changed.
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altitude_19
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You'll notice you used the word "feel" on more than one occasion. That's all it is. And your theory that it "will" wear out the mechanism prematurely is just that...a theory. You have no data to substantiate your claim of premature wear. The "slop" is irrelevant.
OP
OP
GW Staar
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Another interesting observation about this thread. Though it may be possible that every negative might actually turn out to be true, I doubt it. If this was in a court of law. 99% of the negatives would have been thrown out as hearsay, and experiences with a single press. One or even a few bad apples don't mean the whole supply is bad. I'm pretty sure that every manufacturer is capable of having bad examples, or even a bad run. I know for sure that Hornady had one of those last year on their AP production. The mark of a good company is how they take care of the customer following such heartburn events.
As for torque wear, perhaps it could be a factor if this was a machine that was powered and running like an engine. On a hand stroked machine? Laughable, unless one is stroking the thing sunup to sundown seven days a week.
Though I'm still trying to wear out my 40 year-old press, I wouldn't hesitate to buy another Rock Chucker if I needed one. I know I'll be taken care of as a customer. Thank goodness most companies in this hobby do that very well. RCBS has been doing it longer than most.
buck460XVR
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.....another interesting observation. Outta all the replies, the only negative ones came from YOU and 918v. That makes this a pretty positive review.
altitude_19
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LAUGHABLE...I was looking for the right word. I just settled with "show me." Guess I was aiming low. lol
altitude_19
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Just not to those who appreciate function, right? Quality means function and durability. "Slop" is relevant to somebody who doesn't have enough to worry about in the first place.
altitude_19
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Are they? Ive never seen the head to head comparison you seem to be privy to. Or are you fabricating more statistics on service life? Get some hard numbers. They do wonders for credibility.
altitude_19
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All things are a trade off. Does the non-slop model cost half as much, but produce cartridges with .001 in consistency? What color is it? Did the salesperson look me in the eye. What is the mounting configuration?
Greg Mercurio
Member
If "free play" in the linkage is an issue and you want it to go away, adjust it out. Obviously the ENGINEERS that designed the press felt it was, and is, unnecessary to shim out the "free play, as it serves no primary function other than to offend certain people who are more in tune with their feelings than the real physical world.
As a Mechanical Engineer for oh, about 35 years, I can tell you that you will never make some people happy no matter how good your design is, or how functional.
Long ago, when the US Air Force got their hands on a MiG, they remarked at how crude the fit and finish of most of the pieces and bits were. It took a little time to understand that the function of the parts was excellent, and they did exactly what the Mikoyan Design Bureau intended. No frills, no fuss, and lower cost. In other words, it was ok to not polish/paint/prettify the parts, these were fighters, with planned obsolescence. As a bonus the hydraulics were filled with grain alcohol. A real plus for the Crew Chiefs and mechanics.
Just my old crotchety ENGINEERING opinion. YMMV.
As a Mechanical Engineer for oh, about 35 years, I can tell you that you will never make some people happy no matter how good your design is, or how functional.
Long ago, when the US Air Force got their hands on a MiG, they remarked at how crude the fit and finish of most of the pieces and bits were. It took a little time to understand that the function of the parts was excellent, and they did exactly what the Mikoyan Design Bureau intended. No frills, no fuss, and lower cost. In other words, it was ok to not polish/paint/prettify the parts, these were fighters, with planned obsolescence. As a bonus the hydraulics were filled with grain alcohol. A real plus for the Crew Chiefs and mechanics.
Just my old crotchety ENGINEERING opinion. YMMV.
THe Dove
BOOMER SOONER!!!
When I say my prayer tonight, I'm gonna pray that this thread is closed! Geeze!!!
The Dove
The Dove
mallc
Member
Say What???
How about splain' this to the rest of us??
Scott
How about splain' this to the rest of us??
Scott
BigJakeJ1s
Member
On a conventional compound leverage press ram, the handle is rigidly mounted to a toggle that is suspended on pivots between the end of the ram and the linkage arms. Since the linkage arms pivot at their upper end, on the press frame, they cannot resist angular forces on their bottom end, where the toggle is. That leaves only the press ram to resist those lateral forces.
Where do these lateral forces come from? From the operator's hand's pressure on the handle. At the top of the handle stroke, you pull the handle towards you and downward. At bottom of the handle stroke, you are pushing the handle away from you and downward. So somewhere in between there is a reversal of the lateral (non-downward) force applied to the handle. The ram is the only part that can resist that lateral force, therefore the lateral force on the ram also reverses.
A second reversal also happens when the line that passes through both pivots on the toggle passes through horizontal. On different presses, this occurs in different locations in the stroke, but it reverses nevertheless, and unless the handle is at a right angle to that line through the toggle pivots, (and it isn't on any press I'm aware of), then these two reversals do not cancel out.
By contrast, the co-ax handle pivots on the press frame, not a toggle tied to the "ram". The co-ax applies rearward and upward pressure on the guide block/rods (the "ram" on a co-ax) throughout the downstroke of the handle. Then for the entire up stroke of the handle, it applies forward and downward forces on the guide block/rods. These reversals (which also occur at the ends of the stroke on a conventional press ram, in addition to the mid-stroke lateral force reversals described above) occur as the "ram" stroke is reversed, pressure on the shell-holder/cartridge/die is momentarily zero, and all three are free to re-align. The mid-stroke lateral reversals on a conventional press ram occur while the shell-holder/cartridge/ram are under considerable pressure, which then allows friction to resist any re-centering.
Many experienced reloaders follow the old addage to pause and rotate the cartridge at intervals during the sizing and/or seating stroke. I wonder if that has more to do with simply the pause (and subsequent release of pressure and re-alignment), and not so much with the rotation.
Andy
Where do these lateral forces come from? From the operator's hand's pressure on the handle. At the top of the handle stroke, you pull the handle towards you and downward. At bottom of the handle stroke, you are pushing the handle away from you and downward. So somewhere in between there is a reversal of the lateral (non-downward) force applied to the handle. The ram is the only part that can resist that lateral force, therefore the lateral force on the ram also reverses.
A second reversal also happens when the line that passes through both pivots on the toggle passes through horizontal. On different presses, this occurs in different locations in the stroke, but it reverses nevertheless, and unless the handle is at a right angle to that line through the toggle pivots, (and it isn't on any press I'm aware of), then these two reversals do not cancel out.
By contrast, the co-ax handle pivots on the press frame, not a toggle tied to the "ram". The co-ax applies rearward and upward pressure on the guide block/rods (the "ram" on a co-ax) throughout the downstroke of the handle. Then for the entire up stroke of the handle, it applies forward and downward forces on the guide block/rods. These reversals (which also occur at the ends of the stroke on a conventional press ram, in addition to the mid-stroke lateral force reversals described above) occur as the "ram" stroke is reversed, pressure on the shell-holder/cartridge/die is momentarily zero, and all three are free to re-align. The mid-stroke lateral reversals on a conventional press ram occur while the shell-holder/cartridge/ram are under considerable pressure, which then allows friction to resist any re-centering.
Many experienced reloaders follow the old addage to pause and rotate the cartridge at intervals during the sizing and/or seating stroke. I wonder if that has more to do with simply the pause (and subsequent release of pressure and re-alignment), and not so much with the rotation.
Andy
Are you serious??? You want me to explain to you why a gun designed to fire 100,000 rounds at 65,000 PSI is better than a Ruger who pressured SAAMI to reduce the max pressure limit of the 454 Casull because their cylinder steel couldn't take it?
Since Timex equals Rolex to you, we have nothing more to discuss.
howlnmad
Member
I received one about 6 months ago as a door prize. I finally got around to drilling a mounting platre for it and noticed some play. It wasn't the linkage I was concerned with, it was the ram. I got out my dial indicator and found the ram to have .046 side play. Is this excessive for this press or standard. I own several RCBS products but have never owned a RC press. Do I use it as is or repair it?
howlnmad
Member
918v,
Thanks for that info. A friend suggested I call RCBS and ask them if I should send it back. I was going to disassemble it and align bore it and add a bronze bushing and a couple of grease zerks to tighten it up. If you say it should be that loose, then I'll just go ahead and bolt it to a mounting plate and use it for something. Maybe I'll replace the aluminum Lee that I have designated for decapping with it.
Thanks for that info. A friend suggested I call RCBS and ask them if I should send it back. I was going to disassemble it and align bore it and add a bronze bushing and a couple of grease zerks to tighten it up. If you say it should be that loose, then I'll just go ahead and bolt it to a mounting plate and use it for something. Maybe I'll replace the aluminum Lee that I have designated for decapping with it.
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