Are New Rock Chuckers Sloppy?

[ranger335v]

'...If you say it should be that loose, ..."

Howl, it isn't that the ram "should be" loose, it's just that it doesn't matter at all. Nor does the miniscule change in lever/toggle force vectors BigJake so carefully explains.

 

[howlnmad]

ranger,
I was just concerned with a straight wall die not having enough radius and crushing a case on the bottom of the die. Bottle necks would not present this problem. I was just worried with the play, that's one of the reasons I changed all the lock rings on all of my Lee dies. When I have something chucked up in the lathe, the last thing I'm after is poke and hope.

 

[ranger335v]

"...concerned with a straight wall die not having enough radius and crushing a case..."

Okay, but I doubt 46 thou at the top of ram travel is enough to cause much of that.
Consider that the actual offset in one direction is likely about half of the total "slop" you've measured. AND that at the top of the rams travel, it would be less at the point of case entry into the die. Your press isn't my favorite design but it's plenty good.

 

[Horsemany]

My RC produces less runout by adding slop by way of an O Ring on the sizer die. Slop in the ram isn't a bad thing IMO. The case will center itself in the die. Cases don't sit tight enough in the shellholder for a zero tolerance system. My ram has a bit of slop in it and produces ammo with .002" total induced runout. Dies effect runout not the press IME.

 

[mallc]

BigJakeJ1s

Where do these lateral forces come from? From the operator's hand's pressure on the handle.

I'm not sure I understand the differentials in elasticity between the force potential of the operator's hand pressure and and the cast iron componentry of the press? Perhaps you could help us relate the number of repetitive hand cycles it would take to result in 0.001" incremental wear in the ram alignment in a standard RCBS press??

Thanks ,
Scott

 

[altitude_19]

Are you serious??? You want me to explain to you why a gun designed to fire 100,000 rounds at 65,000 PSI is better than a Ruger who pressured SAAMI to reduce the max pressure limit of the 454 Casull because their cylinder steel couldn't take it?

Not at all. I'll simplify the point for you. You have shown NO data indicating just how "slop" affects a press. Your puny human arms will never wear that machine out. Does it affect ammo? Has one exploded under load? Will evil spirits invade my house? What is the TANGIBLE, QUANTIFIABLE, MATERIAL DISADVANTAGE to the free play you claim is present on that press? If you don't have numbers, you don't have anything.

Since Timex equals Rolex to you, we have nothing more to discuss.

You reckon your Rolex will outlast my Timex?

 

[GW Staar]

The mid-stroke lateral reversals on a conventional press ram occur while the shell-holder/cartridge/ram are under considerable pressure, which then allows friction to resist any re-centering.

Many experienced reloaders follow the old addage to pause and rotate the cartridge at intervals during the sizing and/or seating stroke. I wonder if that has more to do with simply the pause (and subsequent release of pressure and re-alignment), and not so much with the rotation.

Andy

Interesting information describing a Co Ax press's stroke. One of the first things I learned from experienced reloaders 40 years ago, was to loosen the keeper spring holding the shell holder to the ram, leaving it barely any "keeping" ability, and able to let the case float a bit to self-center...as long as one didn't get impatient and try for a sizing speed record and ram it home hard and fast on every stroke. And yes, part of that trick was to pause a second as the case was started into the die. Don't remember any "rotating" advice, except if the case holder was a bit loose, vertically, on a small diameter case...which could wobble and miss the hole by a tad. Newer case holders IME have been a little tighter. Anyway, case concentricity improved hugely just doing that. Ditto for seating bullets.

I agree with your assessment, "more to do with simply the pause (and subsequent release of pressure and re-alignment)" The loose shell holder facilitated that alignment more than any minor lateral ram movement.

I don't care if you have a Lee, Redding, Dillon, RCBS, Hornady, or Forster, the machining and tolerance goals are a lot less than perfect, for perfection we'd be paying thousands for a press instead of mere hundreds of dollars, and I doubt concentricity in loaded rounds would be enough better to justify it.

That said, the Forster/Bonanza Co-Ax design does have some neat features, if you can get used to the high-handed stroke, and can afford the price. I wouldn't mind having one...but using a progressive now for most of my reloading, sorta put the skids on adding any more single station presses. And really, the R. C. has done everything I've asked of it really, really well for 40 years. My R.C. loaded ammo has continually shot better than what's stocked commercially around here, and that's why we reload, isn't it?

 

[918v]

You have shown NO data indicating just how "slop" affects a press. Your puny human arms will never wear that machine out. Does it affect ammo? Has one exploded under load? Will evil spirits invade my house? What is the TANGIBLE, QUANTIFIABLE, MATERIAL DISADVANTAGE to the free play you claim is present on that press? If you don't have numbers, you don't have anything.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of "quality" as it relates to consumer products.

 

[Ruger GP100 fan]

Last night I got curious and decided to take a closer look at my RC. I had assumed it was fine since I've not had an issue with my ammo in either the 357 or the 22-250,but I have always noticed a sort of "twang" noise and felt kind of a "snapping" vibration while exiting the case of the 22-250s with the decapping/resizing die. I removed the entire center stem of the die and ran an empty case into the die and by looking down through the center of the die I could see that the top of the case was,in fact,springing to the rear every time it exited the die. I thoroughly cleaned the shell holder and the machined area where the holder slides in. The problem remained.
BigJakeJ1s,I've been trying to get my mind around your post about the stresses created by both up and down strokes of the ram. Maybe the answer is in there and I just haven't seen it yet. Or,it may be that the ram and the die are not concentric,or the surface of the holder when loaded into the ram is not parallel with the surface of the plane that the die bore is drilled through...or both. Since the case always snaps rearward even when I rotate the holder in various directions prior to raising the case into the die,I suspect the latter. Surely the bore for the die and the bore for the ram are done in one operation from the top,but I noticed that neither the top nor bottom surface of the area of the casting where the ram bore is done is machined,I don't think it's unreasonable to suspect that a drill could be forced at an angle when entering,regardless of the type of bushings used in the drilling process. Then again,both may be done on a CNC using tooling other than drills,ruling out that idea. And,Horsemany's comment about runnout also makes me think my press is out of parallel,which,to my thinking would cause a round that is not at a right angle to the shell base...leaning to one side instead of a concentric problem along the case length,apart from the stamped end. I checked around locally for a dial indicator today,but all were too large to do much in that small of place,but I intend to look for one online and see if I can figure out what is going on. It's not that I'm afraid of my rounds...it just bugs me and I just think there may be a way of fixing the problem. It has to be affecting the finished round in some way.

 

[dc.fireman]

I've had my RC (with reversible handle) for a year and a half and there is no "slop" or play in the linkage or ram. It's as solid as a tank and built like one too.
If this one ever wore out, which won't happen anytime soon, I'd buy another in a heartbeat.

Same here.

 

[918v]

You mean there is no side play in the handle with the ram half-way up?

 

[918v]

I could see that the top of the case was,in fact,springing to the rear every time it exited the die.

Don't be so quick to blame the press. Cases are the most likely to be crooked. The ram itself is least likely to be eccentric.

If you chuck a case in a Lee trimmer and spin it, you'll see just how crooked cases can be. Erect two cases next to eachother on a flat surface and rotate them. you'll find they lean into or away from one another. I'd betcha if you installed a perfectly straight case into your shell holder it would not spring at all.

 

[altitude_19]

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of "quality" as it relates to consumer products.

You have a fundamental disorder of your priorities, as it relates to your tools. Next you'll be extolling the virtues of gold-plated wrenches.

 

[Ruger GP100 fan]

Don't be so quick to blame the press. Cases are the most likely to be crooked. The ram itself is least likely to be eccentric.

If you chuck a case in a Lee trimmer and spin it, you'll see just how crooked cases can be. Erect two cases next to eachother on a flat surface and rotate them. you'll find they lean into or away from one another. I'd betcha if you installed a perfectly straight case into your shell holder it would not spring at all.

I ruled out cases that lean to one side by checking the same one several times,rotating it several times and checking alignment for the entire 360*. Each position resulted in the same rearward movement exiting the die. You're right that I should not jump to the conclusion that the Rockchucker is to blame. I simply don't know at this point. I'd like to find a bushing that will screw into the die bore so I can use the ram as an alignment gauge. I'm currently using RCBS threaded dies,but I'm wondering if anyone knows if Lock-And-Load bushings have the same bore diameter as the ram? The ram measures .993. Anyone willing to try slipping the bushing over the ram on their press or have an idea as to where to find a bushing with that bore and thread size that wouldn't break the bank?

 

[918v]

You have a fundamental disorder of your priorities, as it relates to your tools. Next you'll be extolling the virtues of gold-plated wrenches.

I want my wrench to have a solid feel, not like a socket at the end of a rubber hose.

For the "N"th time, this isn't about appearance.

 

[altitude_19]

Until you establish what detriment "slop" has, it IS ONLY about appearance.

 

[GW Staar]

Though your particular press could be at fault, the first things to check is the die and the shellholder. They may or may not be parallel to the ram. Also, especially with small diameter cases like .223, cases can wobble in case holders that are too loose or have roughly machined bottoms, when moved. Also try loosening the keeper spring holding the case holder to the ram, so that it can center the case on a slow rise into the die. Loosen it so that it barely keeps the holder in place. If it snaps in place...its too tight. Your problem may then go away.

I'm not sure what you're asking about bushings unless you want to use Hornady bushings on the Rock Chucker. Hornady has the parts to do just that. You just unscrew the bushing your current dies screw into, and replace it with the Hornady part. Then buy hornady bushings for all your dies. In stock at Grafs for $11.20.

Also consider the one "flaw" in any threaded die, when the Adjustment Ring can be tightened slightly askew. Can even happen inside LnL bushings if you don't compensate for it. The Forster-style rings help that problem somewhat, but any ring can be tightened right...most directions that come with your dies address the problem.

I ruled out cases that lean to one side by checking the same one several times,rotating it several times and checking alignment for the entire 360*. Each position resulted in the same rearward movement exiting the die. You're right that I should not jump to the conclusion that the Rockchucker is to blame. I simply don't know at this point. I'd like to find a bushing that will screw into the die bore so I can use the ram as an alignment gauge. I'm currently using RCBS threaded dies,but I'm wondering if anyone knows if Lock-And-Load bushings have the same bore diameter as the ram? The ram measures .993. Anyone willing to try slipping the bushing over the ram on their press or have an idea as to where to find a bushing with that bore and thread size that wouldn't break the bank?

 

[ranger335v]

"Also consider the one "flaw" in any threaded die, when the Adjustment Ring can be tightened slightly askew. "

I had long wondered if getting a lock ring to be perfectly square to the die would reduce run-out. I finally got an old South Bend 9" lathe several years back and did a test on three die sets in 22-250, 243 and 30-06 that give me the lowest run-out. I stripped the dies, locked the rings to the die bodies and cut the lower ring side perfectly flat while held between centers. A few rings had maybe 3 thou difference between the low and high side which would have made the dies quite a bit off vertical if the threads allowed it. (Just for satisfaction, I later made the same cut on all of my dies.)

I then used my newly "squared" dies in three very different presses. I found no difference in the average "before and after" run-out, nor by which press was used or if the ram was tight or "worn and loose". Sorta confirming my suspecion that run-out is mostly dependant on good methods and prepping cases, next is the internal fit of the dies themselves and by far the least important factor in run-out is the press.

My presses ran from very inexpensive to moderately costly, one new, one 20 years old and one is 45 years old. I don't mention the brands of the presses because it was irrelivant to the results and all it would do is raise a ruckus with no foundation. It does appear that a press has to be quite bad before it has much affect on the finished ammo.

 

[GW Staar]

I'm not terribly surprised of your results. However the gentleman was concerned (probably overly) by why his cases came out leaning...

I offered some reasons to him why they might...also, and perhaps my methods are simpler than yours, but loosening the keeper spring in the ram, has indeed improved runout in my experience, and made rounds loaded that way, comparable to the nearly perfect concentricity, that I used to get using my old Lee Target Loader that employed a straight line seater. Good enough that I quit using it, preferring the speed of the Rock Chucker over that last little bit of perfection. Anyone who ever used the Target version of the Lee Loader...or any Lee Loader for that matter would understand why.

Put simply....Job's patience is not my patience.