Are SOG or other specialty knives worth the money?

[epijunkie67]

I've been looking to buy a good quality fixed blade knife and there seems to be a big variation on prices. From what I've found AUS-8 and AUS-6 steel (what SOG seems to use the most of) is about the same as 440C and 440B steel. So why are their knives so much higher than something like a Buck knife made in 440C?

And I'm not trying to pick on SOG specifically, I'm just using them as an example. There are a lot of companies out there that seem to make the "general purpose, hard working, fixed blade knife with about a 5-6" blade" but the prices are all over the map. If the steel is the same and the size is the same then why so much more?

 

[leadcounsel]

I have researched knives and have a good idea of quality. I own a few and use them often enough to know a quality blade.

I am not a metal expert, but know that here are many out there that seem to perform equally well at holding an edge and having the right hardness while not being to soft or brittle. Seems the magical hardness number is around 58+/-.

I think the best pricepoint for a quality mass produced all around knife is in the $40-80 range. Anything less is probably not the best material and anything more is paying for frills, bells and whistles.

I have several quality mass produced knives from KBar, Camillus, Becker (now out of business), Gerber, Kershaw, CRKT, and S&W. All are good performers with strong blades that keep sharp edges and are also easy to sharpen. I think the least expensive was around $40 and the most expensive was $70.

Like handguns in the $400-600 price range, they all do roughly the same job, just get one that is most comfortable for you.

 

[jhansman]

I saw a SOG going for $380 the other day. Sorry, but I just would not pay that much for a knife I planned on really using. IMO, Kershaw makes some of the best knives for the money today.

 

[22-rimfire]

SOG's are very well made knives. I find them hard to beat for "using" knives.

 

[sm]

Personally I feel the task and setting defines the tool.

Becker-Necker, Klein "Dogfish" (plain edge for me) and A.G. Russel Woodswalker for instance are great "speciality" fixed blades for the money.
With the Woodswalker, I recommend both sheaths and will admit to using the leather one most.


Custom is often the better way to go for "speciality" fixed IMO/IME for many folks.

Take a DL Knives[Valkman] Small Skinner for example. Basic knife is about a $100, still one can have it more personalized to fit them and tasks, spending that money to "specialize" to them, and not what some manufacturer "says" is best for you.

JTW Jr is another one around here, like Valkman, one might have a need for a different steel, or handle shaped to fit hand better, or even just something as simple as style in a smaller version, to be legal in a jurisdiction.

There are other custom folks that listen to the customer.
Which is great as I am personally fed up with marketing cramming down my throat telling me what I have to have with any tool.

The maker of anything should listen to the customer, and the quality maker, has to earn the respect of customers.
There should be a relationship, and in like turn, the customer earns the respect of the maker.

If a customer "listens" , not "hears" instead listens to the concerns of a customer, then communications are better and the "specialized" fixed knife, or anything is best.

i.e I prefer tool steels, or carbon steels if you will for fixed blades.

Still if DL or JTW Jr and I discuss the "need" of me being in a Saltwater setting, these gents and I can discuss taking that 01, or Carbon Steel knife they do, and doing one in a stainless that will resist saltwater settings best.

The heat treat can be discussed for tasks and everything else, even doing a sheath in Kydex instead of leather perhaps.

The result will fit "me", my "specialized needs" , my hands, and everything - not what marketing is cramming down my throat.


Bark River is a good example, these folks communicate with folks very well about their product line, and really listen to a customer's needs.
They make great suggestions from real world input and do so from wanting the customer to be satisfied.
Sure they want to make money, still making the sale is not the driving force, customer satisfaction is.

 

[Valkman]

Still if DL or JTW Jr and I discuss the "need" of me being in a Saltwater setting

Got the 440C standing by!

$380 for a SOG? I have yet to charge that for any knife I make, except for my top-of-the-line, was in "Blade Mag" 7" Super Camp with giraffe bone handles and mosaic pins. That one is $400 with a leather sheath, $350 without.

But with any of my knives, whether they are $100 or $400, YOU get to specify the handle material, the pins, the sheath type and whether it's for a smaller hand, bigger hand or whatever.

I make 2 different knives with 5" or 6" blades - the Fighter I'm now offering for $225 with sheath or the Super Camp which would be just a bit more. But you don't get what's offered, you tell me what you want!

 

[JTW Jr.]

Value is what it is worth to you.


Is it justified ? To me it is. Sometimes I just want that lil extra to make me happy.

However I also carry and use a sodbuster , sometimes a basic fixed blade in 1095 , maybe 01 , sometimes S30v. Usually I have at least one S30v knife on me , one 1095 blade , one in D2 and always one in ATS34 ( new custom slipjoint ).

$20 sodbusters , $50 Case Knives , $70 Queens , $300 Custom slipjoints , $400 Striders.... whatever I feel like that day.

There is no magical knife. Reasons for prices higher than others are evident sometimes , yet sometimes not. Some are worth the price , some to me , don't appear to be worth it.

Sometimes you pay for the name , often that name will come with quality.

ok enuff from me... I gotta go see if I can make this slip joint work without smashing the pins to death again.

Yup , thats Steve fault...least I blamed him when I smashed my finger peening pins

 

[Tirod]

Branding - the "positioning the product in the market" kind of stuff - has a lot to do with pricing.

When Buck makes a copy of a known makers knife and sells it for half the price - same steel, heat treater, and Ti handle, using their production methods, it can actually move slowly. But the original maker has a back log of years on the model at full price, and sells every one he makes.

I bought the Buck at discount - it does just as well, it just doesn't have the wow factor in a knife forum.

Knife prices aren't always about the cost of materials, manufacture, or distribution any more than Mercedes prices. They are about the image they project in quality, usage, and what market they want to supply.

SOG has always been a higher priced user/collector market regardless of materials, because they sell products replicating their original design that is (somewhat) exclusive to them. So, for the buyer who wants SOG, only SOG will do.

Lots of makers do the same - Nike, Chaps, Doc Martens, Surefire, Wilson Combat. No disrespect meant, it's just sound marketing to put a good price on a product to separate the owner from the copycat.

There can be substantial improvements that are very subtle in a better priced knife, just like any tool. Knives aren't all about a sharp edge on a handle any more than a razor blade glued to a popsickle stick, or an Estwing framing handle vs. a rock. That's the Art of knifemaking, doing better to fit the human hand and it's use. Sometimes it just doesn't come cheap.

 

[The Tourist]

Sometimes you pay for the name , often that name will come with quality.

$380 for a SOG? I have yet to charge that for any knife I make

Keeping that in mind, I once went to a restaurant, worked for three hours, and made 600 dollars.

Was it properly priced? You bet. The chef needed perfect edges to create superior presentation to earn his six figure salary. In that business, a knife can be constructed of over 300 layers, balanced to his requirements and worth over 2,000 dollars.

My point is that the industry, both in sales and service, swings a very wide pendulum of pricing.

You can discount a Buck 110 down to about twenty bucks during deer season. Keeping that in mind, if Mick Strider measured my hand, called me six months later offering a personal ergo custom knife, my response would be, "Here's my credit card number..."

I wouldn't even ask about pricing.

Think I'm spinning a yarn? Well, I called Josh Graham a few days ago with some personal touches I'd like on a folder, part of his company's expansion for a product that doesn't even exist...

 

[hso]

Becker (now out of business)

Not quite. BKT was made by Blackjack then Camillus and now is back out with KaBar. Unfortunately the weakening dollar will prevent them from coming out with some of the very cool things Ethan wanted to make affordable with off-shore production (laminated steels), but the standard BKTs that everyone loves will be shipping soon.

SOG's quality is very good. They are a much smaller operation than Buck. Are their prices worth it? I have trouble with any production fixed blade costing in excess of $200 when I can purchase a custom for not much more. OTOH, the machine precision and accuracy of modern knife manufacturing equipment coupled with proper QC can produce a knife functionally equal to anything a custom maker can turn out. They just ain't got no soul to them while a maker imbues a fine example of their craft with some of their spirit.

 

[The Tourist]

They just ain't got no soul to them while a maker imbues a fine example of their craft with some of their spirit.

Granted. I have lots of things to use simply "to cut." Even scissors, which if we were all honest probably do a better job of most of our daily repairs. I know I rely I scissors when I need a degree of accuracy.

However, I also have several large boxes of "Special K" cereal in the house, and my wife makes me take a multi-vitamin, since I am so wan, weak and pale.

In a very real sense, I could last several weeks just stuffing my stomach with cereal. I would survive, but is that "living"?

As for cutlery, I feel the same. I have numerous old Chicago Cutlery knives in my home. And they are sharp.

But when we slice the Thanksgiving turkey, I have some really nice stuff for that chore. In that light, I think I have an Emerson in my jeans today. That is a statement because I just sharpened, polished and refurbish a Chinese Schrade Old Timer last night that will cut as good as anything my firends will have today.

I just don't want to consign my life and joy to a knife I paid 6.33 yankee.

 

[theotherwaldo]

A thing is worth what YOU PERSONALLY are willing to pay for that thing. There is no such thing as intrinsic worth.

If you are buying a name brand object in the belief that someone will be willing to pay considerably more for that object at a later date, fine.

If you are buying a precision cutting device for a particular task set, that's fine too.

If you are buying a strap-on ego boost, that's equally valid.

If you're purchasing a necessary survival tool, well, what's your life worth?

It's just a balance between your wealth and your desire.

-or it's a silly question.

 

[22-rimfire]

I think SOG knives are generally a very good value. They offer a few models that I would consider pricey for a factory blade. I tend to agree with HSO that $200 is about the most I would consider paying for a non-custom. However, when you price customs, you'll see that $200 buys generally smaller blades of the lesser known makers. It is one of the reasons that I like Bob Dozier's blades. His prices are generally within the bounds of my value system (which is developing all the time as I use different knives.)

But I have quite a few SOG blades and they are consistantly of very high quality. I like the Bowie's, but have a little trouble paying for one now as I have a number of their older models that I find to be excellent. So, like the previous poster mentioned, the price is relative to the value you place on the knife, your intended use, and your knowledge of their products.

My latest purchase is the Mini-Vulcan which I am quite pleased with and would buy another one if I lost this one. I feel that is about the best testimony of value.

Added: I think the Vic Swiss Army knives are in general a very very good value. I also like Queen's and Schatt & Morgan folders. I like traditional knives, and I can appreciate fine craftsmanship. The Buck 110's are very good for the price; in fact they are a steel at Walmart. Chris Reeve knives are costly and I'm just not to that point in my knife buying to justify a $400 folder.

 

[sm]

hso,
You might want to sit down, get a glass of water, and take two Tylenol.
*rut-roh*


As I shared earlier- I have a original Becker-Necker and Klein Dogfish.
I have actually carried these recently.
Yes, I do need to sharpen them.

Sa-ben-za.
That expensive jobbie that Chris Reeves fella does.
I actually carried one for a few hours...

<thud!>

Would someone help hso back up? *wink*

I don't know the model, just it was a smaller one, with no clip, plain edge.
I call it the "tall, good looking blond southern babe ,in a short mini-skirt model".
*well*

I'd take one of them if give to me. *yep*

I will admit, with my background, I can appreciate the craftsmanship that went into this knife.

Shing, is another one, as I have handled two of his.

JTW Jr's Ken Erickson new single blade trapper of 3.5 inches interests me.

Whomever posted a pic of Kim Breed's pocket knife I need to hit, as I like it too.

I appreciate craftsmanship, and I have thing about people with talents and gifts.
Just old school, earned respect and all that.

Still...I got to see and handle a Chris Reeve's work.

Very very nice!

Gee...it is only ten times more than a Case Peanut!

 

[hso]

There is no such thing as intrinsic worth.

No, I can't agree.

I do agree that a lot of what we pay for is not the intrinsic worth of a knife, but the simple fact is that a knife that holds an edge, sharpens easily, has a good edge geometry and heat threat and quality materials so that it cuts easily without chipping or rolling over has in fact greater intrinsic worth than a cheap POS with an unreliable lock and pivot with poor quality steel/heat treat and a crummy edge geometry. The intrinsic value is obvious in the two and the greater intrinsic value is obvious in one over the other. After that you add in the intangibles that add to the cost without adding much to the intrinsic worth of the knife.

My damascus bowie with stag grip and damn near a 1/4lb of nickel silver in guard, subhilt and pommel does not perform one whit better than the same knife crafted with a tool steel blade, iron fittings and wood furniture. The price is greater for the stag and damascus and german silver knife, but the intrinsic value would be the same as the tool steel/iron/wood bowie and that would be less than half what I paid for Gary's knife I brought back from Blade.

******************

BTW, SM, you mean this one?

or this

 

[The Tourist]

It's just a balance between your wealth and your desire--or it's a silly question.

No, it's one of the most valid aspects of this debate. And like any other decision that has a tipping point, this discussion has a very important one.

Follow me. I get a two-inch knife from a client. I toss it into the freezer, perhaps for two days. Following that, I take a stone (that has already paid for itself several times over) and scrape off a blue magic marker swatch until the bevel is "sort of even."

Then with a series of finer stones--also paid for--and a few 3M papers which are available anywhere on the internet, I dab a sliver of polishing paste (less than a penny) onto this paper, and buff out all of the tool marks, burrs and possible wire edges.

The freezer runs for less than a quarter, the stones wear is perhaps a nickel, the paper is also a nickel, and for the sake of simplicity, the paste is a penny.

Total cost in reality is 31 cents, tops!

So, the following day, I call the owner, hand him the two inch knife, he scans the edge, asks for the damage and tell him it's seventy-five dollars. He pays it--gladly--just like he did last year.

You see, he is an avid elk hunter. He lives to horseback into the most remote areas of the west, usually Wyoming, combing the place for a healthy 6x6, hoping for the magic 7x7.

Most of the animal must be packed up simply to move it. And because he's already had a trophy damaged, he capes the animal along with the professional guide.

He demands this edge on his knife. He's considered buying a spare.

Personally, I'd carry four or five, just in case, and then hand them out to the staff.

Ask the guys here, what does a ruined elk hunt cost?

 

[22-rimfire]

The $75 price does not bother me. The client obviously is not poor. I charge more than that for my time in my profession. I think the client should learn how to sharpen a knife.

Tourist: What is the purpose of putting the knife in the freezer? I would buy a spare if I were in his shoes. Makes perfect sense.

My brother in law keeps telling me to stomp my good blades but I keep going back to my tried and true methods with a stone. The "stone" these days is a DMT or a series of them. Works well on the hard modern steels.

 

[The Tourist]

Tourist: What is the purpose of putting the knife in the freezer?

Many people believe--and I am joining them--that a cryogenic quench changes the steel in heretofore different ways.

In the case of HT, they plunge the entire blade blank into their facility.

A tinker is concerned with the very edge. A fellow tinker in Canada suggested this procedure with problematic knives, and I tried it. I even freeze the knife between operations if I have the time.

Since we only need a little bit frozen on the edge, a suburban freezer seems to be all that is needed. I freeze these knives until the blade and handle have that "rock hard" quality.

 

[sm]

"Handy2"

AKA "Handy2ooL"

I've done this personally since I did my first one at age 10. (1965)

Take a Old Hickory 1095 carbon steel knife, with wood handle.
Or.
Similar carbon steel with wooden handle knife from the hardware store.

Now the first one I did, was a Case Kitchen knife found, and messed up.

Handle was filed, lanyard hole drilled, and shaped to fit my hand, sanded and had a notch for a "guard" if you will.

Blade is squared off at the end, like a Produce knife.
2 inches to no more than 3 inches total blade length.
The end is filed to a chisel, then sharpened.

Near the tang a wire stripper notch is filed.

Blade is sharpened .

Now this is one handy specialty tool!

It reminds one of a Graham Razel

Now I like the shorter ones, I /we have done larger ones.
Using anything from Paring knife to Butcher knife size.

If one looks on OH's site, and go under "Industrial/ Agricultural" knives, they will see all sorts of carbon steel tools , from grape knives, to shoe knives, to beet knives...etc.

Electrician knives have a fixed blade, with screwdriver, wire stripper and all too.

We just took a knife used, abused , or found (lost) even a yard sale one bought for 25 cents and made a useful tool out of it again to fit a handy- specialty niche.

From kitchen, barn, garden, ranch, electrical, warehouse, shop, cabin (hunting/fishing), house to you name it, this knife is "Handy2".

Scrap a gasket, or trim caulk, even use as a screwdriver, I mean just touch up the end like a chisel and good to go!
The "corner" is sharp, and will cut very well...

I had the part near handle more "toothy" for cutting rope and the rest of the blade "less toothy" /more sharp.

Handy2 is the name I called it as a wee brat and the name stuck with Mentors and all.
I was about age 3 when I said this, so the story goes.


$4 is what a OH cost new not long ago from the mom and pop hardware store to make another one for someone.

Hard to put a value on this thing...

 

[Valkman]

Many people believe--and I am joining them--that a cryogenic quench changes the steel in heretofore different ways.

Yes it does, but it only works on stainless steels. Bos does it as part of his HT. I have never heard of freezing for sharpening, now that's interesting!

PS - I recently found out a customer, on his quest to become good at sharpening, has purchased the Edge Pro top-of-the-line kit and also a Tormek sharpener. He's never used either. I'm hoping he'll choose one and sell me the other!

 

[The Tourist]

cryogenic quench...Yes it does...stainless steels.

The knife I descibed was a D2 KOA Bear Cub. It had 11% chromium, close enough!

Bos does it as part of his HT.

If Paul Bos does it, that's good enough for me.

I have never heard of freezing for sharpening, now that's interesting!

Neither did I. My fellow tinker in Canada swears by it. It seems to be working.

Edge Pro top-of-the-line kit

I recommend it. I own two of them. Call Ben. Ask him for "glass."

 

[Gunsby_Blazen]

I have a couple SOG pocket knives and they really great. I also got a KBAR folder and its great too. All of them are built tough.
I would say any knife from any of the respectable knife companies would be good. That being said, my future knifes will be from either SOG or KABAR.

I used to like Schrade, but I don't think that company is around any more...

 

[sm]

hso - Re: Sebenza

This was the Small Classic.
She has had it a few years, and it has been a user.
From field use, to hunting, to you name it.

Seriously, she also carries a A.G. Russel Utimate Pen Knife in Titanium.
These two knives actually compliment each other...

She is in restrictive areas and locking knives are not allowed.

She wants, and I agree, with Restrictive settings a Sebenza, non-locking , 2 7/8" to meet the 3" or less closed length restrictions, would be a very good knife.

This would work for not only in the USA, also in the UK and other countries.

A.G. Russel offering very nice, and fits a "specialty" niche, and not just price point.


This is one reason I have kept championing the non-locking knives, not just because I like them - the fact these do in fact work in restrictive settings.

Chris Reeve could do a smaller Classic, in a few sizes to meet restrictions, non locking and fit a niche.

Shing does this, and his back springs are stout, not too stout, still stout to resist closing.

Chris Reeves makes one of these non-locking, and sends me one to test, I'll wring it out.
Folks know how I like traditional, still I could be un-biased and really put a non-locking knife to work, as I really do use one.

While my AG Russel Ultimate pen was neat, and works, still being honest my Peanut is a better knife for size of knife and tasks it can do.
This lady said the same thing, as she also has been a Case Peanut, with CV blades since she was a wee brat...how she was raised.

Also-

Inyoni
http://www.chrisreeve.com/inyoni.htm

She has one of these and it a proven user as well.
While intended for small game (bird and trout) this knife works very well for larger game as well as proven by her.

Again, a smaller version of this one, or similar would fit a niche.
Her idea is simply to make a smaller non-locking Classic, as stated earlier, then do the same knife in a fixed -retaining feel, ergo's and familiarity.

I agree - as I did have a custom, fixed, that was nothing more than a Case Peanut, , with 01 tool steel blade.

"Specialty" to fit a niche for me and tasks, which it did extremely well.
I miss that knife....

 

[Todd A]

The Tourist....

I just sharpened, polished and refurbish a Chinese Schrade Old Timer last night

Was that pic really necessary?

My eyes are now burning.

 

[The Tourist]

My eyes are now burning.

If you think you eyes hurt now, you should have seen how it was shipped!

BTW, if you look at the rear bolster, that is how the knife appears in real life. The front bolster appears to still have a matte' finish, but they do match.

It's not bad for a "throw down" knife you don't mind losing. I made sure the grips are tight, there's no slop in the movement and the lock latches securely.

I would surmise that sm could use this at deer camp for somewhere around 72 hours before he broke it down for parts...