Are we better shots?

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Lack of teamwork, combat experience, concealment practice would be bigger handicaps for us than relative lack of accuracy for them...and I don't think they are all that bad, either.

Twoblink, how many rounds did it take us to hit that coin at 25 yards when you were in TN? That was from support with a match M1A... I don't think we are very good with guns.
 
Usually these type discussions involve someone saying "Well, I saw this cop (or former military) at the range and I could shoot rings around him." Hardly a representative sample. I've seen non-LEOs/non-military at ranges who were putting rds in the bench, hitting the dirt 5 yds in front of the line, trying to load .38 ammo in a .380 mag. Those are hardly representative samples either. But using the thought process of some those non-LEOs who put the rds in the bench mean that all non-LEOs can't shoot.
I also question whether most on this list or any firearms list are more accomplished. Being on any list just means they have a computer. How much training do they really have? Just emptying a couple of boxes of ammo at a piece of paper on a Saturday is not training.
How many shoot 3000-5000 rds a month, every month, for several years? Not many. Use to tho when the USAF was supplying all my ammo for the rifle and pistol teams.
How many actually train, not just rapid fire a couple of mags and think that's training. How many have every shot on the move? Not just once in a while, everytime, at various distances in various environments. Or immediatley after running 2 miles with gear? Or practiced immediate action drills until they become second nature? Or as others have mentioned, with dirt in your eyes, laying in the mud, cold, wet, dark? Or ever fired while being fired upon?
As those on here who have BTDT will tell you it ain't nothing like the range when you're taking incoming rds.
 
Overall who knows ?
If you took the best of THR and the best of military GI Joes
Im afraid we would have less members.
my opinion would be with training the military has would make the difference
 
You're a better shot than me and my joes, twoblink? And you lump ALL service members in with your "...military friends don't even know how to properly handle a gun safely IMHO."

I would like to see how your accuracy would suffer when shooting the way I have to. With a 1Kg (2.2lbs) helmet and 10-15Kg (22-27lbs) of body armor, and 5-6Kg (11-13lbs) of magazines all worn on your body for hours at a time. But wait - let's throw in 51 degree C (roughly 125 degrees F) heat while we're at it. And the unknown, we can't forget the unknown - "Show us what's behind door number 2! Congratulations! You've just won 3 people that want to blow your head off and a year's supply of Castor Oil GTX!!"

Shooting positions. There are no benchrests in a firefight. No classic Weaver stance or Chapman stance. No time to take that measured shot utilizing the fundamentals of marksmanship. Some of the distances are as close as 2 meters. Zero time to think. Barely enough time to act. Here, he who shoots first lives.

And fear. Let's talk about fear for a moment. There have been times in the last year I've been scared ***tless. Anybody that's ever been shot at before that tells you he/she wasn't scared is a liar or a fool. 9 times out of 10 a grunt defaults to his training, discipline, and trust - the fear is still there, but we have "X" mission to accomplish and we accomplish this mission using "Y" method, and SGT "Z" will make the right decisions. Do you kow how hard it is to have one of your comrades injured and still continue on? I hope you never do.

The bottom line is this: If you're such a great shot, why don't you join up?

Mike
 
For accuracy on paper, bet on this fat guy with a beard... Now, if it involves running around, ducking, and walking like a duck, well...

And I'm a vet...

I've shot next to cops, local and fed, soldiers, etc., and I think that they're trained to an extent. I also think that very many of them think they their training covers it _all_. Wrong. I've had 'em get mad when I've called 'em on a safety violation, when I've pointed out that I didn't need 9mm rounds on my target, where the .45 rounds were going, or offered to help 'em zero a scope that they'd already wasted a box and a half of ammo on...

I've also never lost a one-on-one money match with one.
 
Here In Military City USA...

..I've no doubt the "Joes" would out shine the LEO's and most of the THR members..by virtue of their sheer numbers and volumes of experience.

For myself, I'd stand up against most anyone @ 7 to 10 yards using my S&W 65 with the 1.5 - 2lb trigger pull (a friend..combat arms instructor at Lackland.. tweeked it for me some years back).

I still have a long way to go with my semi-auto KAHR and it's 4 - 6lb pull. But going to the range or ranch for practice is slowly paying off. Truely, getting there(proficency) is half the fun!

Take Care
 
I think that LEOs and citizens run pretty much across the same spectrum of shooting ability, and even mindset. Problem is, the cop who considers the pistol a heavy part of the uniform, barely qualifies, and worries about being investigated if he does get in a shooting scrape, STILL has to go looking for criminals. John Q. Public can modify his behavior to reduce his risk if he doesn't want to fight.
 
"can outshoot about 90% of police officers"

Gee. There's only 800,000 police officers in the US. So how many have you seen shoot? :rolleyes:
90%? Statistics show that 60% of the statistics are lies and the other 40% are made up.:barf:



"Both have done the job just seems Police need a lot more shots to do it."

A completely bogus comparison. Here's why. When a police officer fires his weapon it's nearly always in a return fire situation. He's been fired on, has to draw, and return under fire usually while seeking cover.


"I belive shootings were Police fire 100's of rounds in to a car to kill a BG are not good shootingd"

How many of those situations occur? How many of those type situations would a non-LEO be involved in?
How about the cop that put a 12 ga slug dead center COM while advancing from 50 yds? 1 shot fired. BG DRT. Or the cop who fired 8 rds from his Glock 21 nearly as fast as he could pull the trigger in near total darkness with just a bit of light and at 15 yds put all 8 rds between the belt buckle and nipple line? Or the cop who, after being hit in the gut just below the belt and laying on the ground took dead aim and put one in the back of the BG's head thru a back window of a pickup. Never hear about those.
Lebben-B is exactly right on. These couch potato commandos think it's all easy. Afterall, they shoot at paper, which as far as I've ever seen has never shot back, or they fire up their XBoxes and are super SWAT operators. That's why these discussions are so BS. They're always started by someone who has never even heard a shot fired in anger let alone had to really fight for their lives. :banghead:
Be careful Lebben.
 
Can we get rid of our old creaky bones and fat bellies before we take on a squad of young marine?

It's a nice fantasy. It's like those SciFi books that always postulate that:

Humans are the toughest fighters in the galaxy. Like we really know.
 
Like you guys are saying, in a paper match at the range, with all guns, THR has an excellent chance.

In an 'us vs. them' infantry battle, our chances are much slimmer. It's their job to study and survive combat, and the U.S. infantryman is probably the best on the planet.

That doesn't mean victory is impossible, though. We'd have to get creative with everything: modes of communication, tactics (psych warfare, ambushes, feigned withdrawls, all of which require extreme teamwork), and non-firearms weapons especially. IEDs, chemical weapons, and mines/booby traps would probably be the way to go. The last thing you want is an exchange of fire.
 
A coupla other things I've noticed...

Cops (local and fed) who _can_ shoot generally don't make all that big a deal out of either being cops or shooters.

The ones who _do_ make a big deal out of either are generally good for at least enough $$$ for a case of beer.

There are a LOT of big mouths and attitude out there, and a lot of folks seem to think that they're issued skill along with the badges... Remember our DEA friend, Ossifer Glock Forty?
 
The Navy

I have not been on the range with any members of law enforcement, but regarding the military...

In the Navy, particularly the surface Navy, firearms training, is at best, minimal. I would hazard to guess, and it would be a guess, that we are pretty low on the spectrum of firearms profficiency in the Armed Forces. I was at the Army Command and General Staff College on my last tour, and can say with some degree of certainty that the combat arms branches of the US Army shoot very well. Also, the USMC prides itself on marksmanship. I think that if you are comparing those people against those who frequent this website, the Army and USMC would come out on top.

But, if you taka a random sample of the Armed Forces, to include all branches, then those people who take it upon themselves to learn how to shoot (ie THR members), then the results may very well be different.
 
I shoot qualifying with LEO's, due to my job. I can shoot better than many of them when it's time to stand on the line and pull the trigger. I can hold my own during some of the basic "shoot on the move" drills. However, I get just plain smoked every time I try and take on one of the dynamic or stress shooting courses. These are "shoot on the move", use of cover, judgment, interaction with the targets, multiple weapons, etc. Basically, whatever nastiness the instructor can think up.

Why? They do it for a living, and I do it for fun, meaning that they have to "think" that way every day, and I do it only occassionally. What do I mean? Take slicing the pie, cornering. They do it almost daily. I don't. Working in pairs/groups. They do it every day. Force on force drills? I can pass. Reaction times are better when you know what to look for, because you look for it every day.

And this is without considering the volume of fire that a joint LEO/military operation could mount. We'd be smoked in short order.
 
THR isn't an organized group. In a fight, any organized group would slaughter a disorganized mass. Even if the disorganized mass has higher numbers.
 
I've been involved with shooting competitions for over 35 years. I have received much formal training from 'the masters.'

That said,

The US Army snipers and the US Air Force para-rescue jumpers are the most outstanding shooters I have ever seen.
 
Airboss, a Vietnam Vet, may he rest in peace, had more or less this to say on the topic:

"Given about 5-10 minutes warning, and any 2 or 3 of my neighbors, no law enforcement group within 100 miles would stand a chance."

He then went on to say that it'd be a push against the National Guard, with him ultimately on the losing side courtesy of the reality of logistics, and that he'd consider that he'd do well to last all of 10 or 15 minutes against "the real military", even without air support or artillery.

The difference, he stressed, wasn't the equipment or the marksmanship, but the simple fact that the real military drills on the effective use of this equipment in the context of coordinated team strategies. That, and the fact that he was an old man.
 
Sorry twoblink, this is just stupid.

There is no way to compare this at all. There are cops and military that can't shoot worth a damn, just as there are posters here who absolutely suck with a gun.

No offense, but I've shot with many TFLers and THR people. And I shoot better than 99% of those that I've shot with. So by your criteria I can say that THR shooters must suck. That said there are some that would whoop me senseless on my best day. Most gunnies on the internet talk a lot more about shooting than they actually shoot.

There are maybe about a dozen cops in this state who could outshoot me on any given day. Now in a knock down drag out fight, they would probably kill me, because they are tougher and have the mindset. I work with many SF vets. Guess what? I can outshoot many of them too, but in a fight, they would probably kill me. Why? Because they have the experience, and the heart neccesary.

In a big fight? Us vs. them? (which is just plain asinine, because they are us, and we are them). The internet crowd would be slaughtered like sheep.
 
Most folks that are any good will never tell you they are good at what they do. They just go out and do it. As far as shooting skills go I get beat in most matches. It happens very, very often. I do not ever care who beats me and if it is a police officer or military that does it they earned it and it was not given to them. I always get a feeling who is it going to be this weekend as most of the time somebody has a career day. It is pretty even around here and any one of like 5 folks have a shot on any given day in this state at least. And yes a couple of them are military also. How does the police stack up? If a few of them put in the time I think they would be there also.
about us versus them in a real world fight. The military stopped taking folks my age about 16 years ago for me at least so how the heck could I tell you I would win? I think I would not last long but then again I do not plan on letting them know that I am the enemy untill it is to late for them as there are not enough of me to trade one for one or even one for ten.
I would lose and I know it.
 
A couple of months ago US forces out of Guam were in town to help train
Philippine soldiers. Part of the training was open to the media observation,
and this included time with pistols against cardboard silhouettes, in a skill-
assessment exercise.

Not sure of the range to targets, maybe 15-20 yards, but Americans and Filipinos
were shooting alongside one another, and with M1911A1's. The hits were
all over the targets, not much grouping, but one observer pointed out that:

1. There were virtually no outright misses
2. many of the soldiers were used to Beretta 9mm's
3. The soldiers were shooting from a predetermined variety of stances,

from Weaver to Iso to onehand, kneeling, etc, all within maybe three mags.

Sure, they weren't getting A-zones all the time, but they were hitting,
despite frequent changes in stance and hold, and having full gear on,
with unfamiliar pistols: old (some, very old) US EDA M1911A1's.

All the trainees were veterans of real jungle combat and urban house-to-house.
Shooting cardboard is a whole lot different from shooting people,
and so I think I'd rather face the world's top 20 IPSC shooters in a pistol deathmatch,
than any two of those 'trainees'.

There's the rub, really: When you talk about 'outshooting' someone,
do you mean 'in the context of a game', or in the real world?


horge



PS: it's mano a mano (hand-to-hand) :)
 
Organized, trained, motivated groups of people will always beat those who are not.

That said, About all I could seriously hope to do in this kind of situation is make someone pay more for me than they expected to. :)
 
In match shooting, I'd expect the overall THR membership to beat the OVERALL law enforcement community—in match shooting.

In match shooting, I'd lean toward the THR membership showing better average scores than the AVERAGE scores of ALL soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines. If EVERYone in both groups shoots for score.

In a fight, however, Airboss said it (thanks, Geek).

Think of a rose bush fighting a bulldozer.
 
CAPTAIN MIKE said:
The common myth is that 'cops can't shoot so good' because it is widely believed that most only draw their weapons when it's time for the regularly-scheduled qualification days. I know that a number of news stories have disclosed the high number of shots fired in ratio to the number of hits, and this is the basis for the myth.
Click to expand...

It's not a myth, and denial is not a river in Egypt.
 
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