Are we even at war at all?

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Odds are that was Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, or Powell.

Actually they've been very careful to parrot the "Not about Islam, Islam =peace" line over and over.

Now I am not sure if they really belive that or not, but for obvious reasons you are not going to hear anything controversial about Islam in a prepared speech.

Off the cuff remark, well maybe, but I doubt it after the backlash to Bush's "crusade" gaffe.
 
(7.62FullMetalJacket) we will finish it.
Include me out.

I'm not at war. All those that are, suit up (with your own money) and ship out for glory.

If I am ever attacked, I'll defend.

MR
 
Uh, 'Scuse me guys?

I thought this thread wasn't about whether or not those guys were bad guys, but about whether or not our Govt is behaving correctly. Sure there's fighting and killing, some of it done (most, I hope) by US forces, but it ain't legally WAR unless and until Congress says so.

This stuff we're having now seems to me very like that Barbary Pirate situation we had 200 years ago. Weak crooked mohammedan govts failing to restrain their REALLY crazy subjects, the US making nice and paying bribes for a while, then, well, some people just don't understand nice.

Are the cases similar enough for similar remedies to work? Who knows? Why don't we at least TRY a similar remedy, instead of this modern pretending to be at peace while actually making war, or whatever it is exactly.

So: My modest proposal -- business as usual at home, no foreign invasions, but a state of reprisal with big yummy prize money for the heads and the property of all those annoying nasty people! (as defined by Congress)
 
We appear to be trying a similar remedy right now.

Jefferson dispatched forces to fight the Barbary Pirates between 1801 and 1805 without a Declaration of War, although he did get an congressional "authorization" short of that later (yes, Tripoli was stupid enough to declare war on us during the process, but the Navy was on its way well before we knew about it, and the Navy did not confine its activities to Tripoli).

Jefferson wasn't even the first, the Adams administration fought an undeclared war on French shipping between 1798 and 1800.

Presidents have been doing exactly this sort of thing for over two hundred years. Consquentially, the United States has been in more undeclared wars that declared ones. For referance, you might try,

The Savage Wars of Peace: Small Wars and the Rise of American Power

And the far more conservative

Republican Study Comittee document

Quick Quiz: What is then Attorney General Knox credited with saying about constructing a legal defense for our intervention that led directly to the creation of Panama in 1903?























"Oh Mr. President, do not let so great an achievement suffer from any taint of legality"


This same argument over the legitimacy of undeclared wars has been raging throughout our history.
 
Ah, yes, the "Quasi-War";

Wherein USS Constitution got her nickname. (Southern live oak and yellow pine being the 18th Century equivalent of Krupp Wotan armor!)
 
We DID start it, and by god, if the powers that control our government have their way, we'll never finish it.

Two years, ZERO accomplishments. (And I don't consider "liberating Iraq" an acomplishment-- Iraq is not liberated, Iraq is still a war zone.)

Oh, I'm sorry, there have been significant accomplishments. Our government has made a lot of hay using the 9/11 excuse to eliminate liberty in this country-- achieving the goal they claim is the terrorist's.

With terrorism you can kill people, but to really destroy America, takes an act of congress.
 
Fourth Generation Warfare

Roughly speaking, "fourth generation warfare" includes all forms of conflict where the other side refuses to stand up and fight fair.

What distinguishes 4GW from earlier generations is that typically at least one side is something other than a military force organized and operating under the control of a national government, and one that often transcends national boundaries.

If we look at the development of warfare in the modern era, we see three distinct generations … Third generation warfare was conceptually developed by the German offensive in the spring of 1918 … Is it not about time for the fourth generation to appear? Lind, Nightengale, Wilson, et. al., Marine Corps Gazette, October 1989

The attacks on the Pentagon and World Trade Center are horrific examples of operations as part of a campaign conducted according to fourth generation principles. They dispelled forever the notion that 4GW is just "terrorism" or something that happens only in poverty-stricken Third World countries. But it is a strange form of warfare, one where, for example, military force plays a much smaller (though still critical) role than in earlier generations, often supporting initiatives that are more political, diplomatic, and economic. As important as finding and destroying the actual combatants, for example, is drying up the bases of popular support that allow them to plan and then execute their attacks. Perhaps most odd of all, being seen as "too successful" militarily may create a backlash, making the opponent's other elements of 4GW more effective.

the rest of "Fourth Generation Warfare"
 
"We" started it?

I find the notion that we are not at war at all and have accomplished nothing to be more than a little disconcerting. The average American is, I think, asleep after 9/11 and I do not understand how people go about their lives so blindly unaware of what's going on around them.

In truth, the Islamists have been at war with us since the mid-60s. And yet, Americans slept through it all. Only when something horrorific happens do they temporarily awaken and express outrage. Kindapped and murdered military officers, assassinated diplomats, civilian hostages, sailors beaten to death, hijacked airliners (since the late 60s), American citizens thrown off cruise ships, Navy ships bombed, embassies bombed, and the VAST majority of the sheeple yawn through it all.

Remember Daniel Pearl? He was an American. They forced him to make this video before beheading him. (Warning: VERY Graphic) http://download.consumptionjunction.com/multimedia/cj_9833.RAM

bin Laden calls for a fatwa against Americans and Jews, the PLO charter STILL calls for the destruction of Israel, yet Americans sleep. University professors IN THE US act as the money men for Islamic Jihad and Hamas, not even a blip on most American's radar. Terror cells in Washington, Ohio, Florida, and Michigan, not just wannabes, but guys who took the time to go to and train in the terror camps. Fortunately caught BEFORE they could act.

Want to see the reality of the war that some think doesn't exist? Fly to Tel Aviv or Jerusalem, rent a car and drive into eastern Israel; Samaria or Judea. Find an Arab town, exit your vehicle and go for a walk. Around sundown would be good.

More examples of Islamist justice (also extremely graphic):
http://www.dafka.org/ContentFiles/videos/m-mpg.asx
http://212.150.177.135/islam/russian2.asf
http://www.masada2000.org/impalement.asx

And we started it? Wake up. Take it seriously when they say "First the Saturday people, then the Sunday people." What reason have they given you to make you think they're kidding? No one you know is dead?

I wonder what would have happened after December 7, 1941, if the American people had gone back to sleep as they have now. The world would look a lot different.

hands.jpg
 
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Not until the daily lives of most Americans are seriously affected will see an "awakening" in this country to the reality of the threats we are facing. Before 9/11 the real war we are in wasn't even on the radar screen for most Americans. And 9/11 was a shock, but for 99% of America it was, in the end, just another TV show they were able to put behind them with some heavy shopping and some comfort food. Americans still feel insulated and they are still comfortable. Very few are engaged in this conflict. It looks as if it's going to take Something Big and Nasty to engage the collective imagination and, just maybe, spur the collective will.

Yeah, "we started it" when "we" decided to opt for a civilization based on reason and individual rights and civil law. And, yes, in the end, we WILL finish it.
 
Jack19--

No offense, but I think it is you who is asleep.

I understand, we've seen this in the past in history.

When the lie is big enough, people can star it's disproof in the face and still deny that it is false.

When the consequences of recognizing reality are so huge they will shake the foundation of ones personal security, people will choose to believe the Big Lie.

Where was Bush when the first plane hit. What was he doing?

Its staring you in the face.
 
Where was Bush when the first plane hit. What was he doing?

He was in an elementary school classroom in Florida. Your point?

Now, personally, I think the "War on Terror" is a big SNAFU militarily and has been disastrous for our liberties. The Feds declared war on a tactic , not an enemy. They compounded this error with things like the PATRIOT Act and the TSA.
 
Don, so what, exactly is the "big lie?"

I was in South Lebanon in the early 80s, no I wasn't a Marine, and I'm here to tell you the Islamists are deadly serious about their war.

I wonder what it will take for the average American to understand? A nuke? A chem or bio-weapon? A dirty bomb? Suicide bombers at the local mall? Assassinations of citizens on the street?...wait we've already had that....we're trying those two now. :(

Again, what reason have they given you to make you think they're kidding?

Like Ripley, you can believe it.... or not.
 
The big lie is that they are attacking us for our way of life.

What bush was doing during the attacks was to prevent any response by NORAD, letting the attacks happen.

Its a riechstag fire to allow him to go in and fight his christian holy war against muslims.

No more moral than Muslims who fight similar wars based on religion.

And if people need to be woken up, why has the White House, and other elements of the federal government, worked to obstruct the investigation of 9/11 at every turn?

I don't expect you to believe me. I don't expect you to even listen to me. That was my point, but the truth is staring you in the face. Watch the video of bush on that day.
 
Don, I don't recall anyone saying they're attacking us for our way of life.....although toilet paper is a highly coveted item. lol :D

Sorry but Islamist terror started before Bush was born. You can't blame Bush, or Christians, for this one. Last I checked, The Bible said to love and forgive one's enemies.....sadly not so of the Koran.

Again, what reason have they given you to make you think they're kidding? The explosions in Istanbul last night were just jokes? The Turks aren't laughing.....and they're Muslims.
 
Might as well lock this thread now, the Let It Happen On Purpose (LIHOP) conspiracy concerning 9/11 has raised its stupid head.:rolleyes:

Fantastically, some of the "violated" Americans "victimized" by the Patriot Act are posting out here in the open, making themselves the targets of the new American Gestapo. Dudes, you are under the watchful eye of the man, why not act like it? Operational security demands silence.:evil:

That some of you aren't already in the bunker sending coded correspondence to the Unabomber whilst wearing the trusty tinfoil shows that you probably do not take the "rape" of your own civil rights seriously enough.

As for the Cold War against Islamofascists, we will be in it for the long haul if for no other reason than they will not leave us alone even if we retreated all the way back to our own shores. As much as anything else, this is a war against "decadence" from their point of view as it is about anything else. I doubt even in a future America brimming with tofu eating cowards who think the FBI actually cares about what they read absent some reason to be targeted, will Hollywood stop exporting movies and videos of the next lip-synching slut to come down the pike.

Our very existence challanges their way of life, not the other way around. The men behind these attacks on us have much to lose if they actually had to begin respecting women as equals, not genitally mutilate their girls, actually respect a society of laws, not dominate civil discourse through the false invocations of God, and live with their neighbors without committing honor killings or other such barbarity, etc.

They're backwards culturally, losing ground economically and socially and they know it. However, their prescription is for more of the same. It is no wonder that significant death cults have grown in areas where the absence of Islam's more benign facets is prominent.
 
What bush was doing during the attacks was to prevent any response by NORAD, letting the attacks happen.

...and with that, I'll make my first post in a REALLY long time.

Exactly what in the wild woolly world could NORAD have possibly done?

And if people need to be woken up, why has the White House, and other elements of the federal government, worked to obstruct the investigation of 9/11 at every turn?

Simply because it was a failure of epic proportions brought on by poor intelligence, a nansy pansy attitude of "cooperation" during hi-jacking attempts (which I always personally found just plain silly), and a total lack of awareness that there are always people who hate America and want to kill Americans. I even suspect that someone at the highest levels of our government may be guilty of ignoring the warning signs...not for any sinister reasons, but due to good old fashioned incompetence and complacency.

I don't expect you to believe me. I don't expect you to even listen to me. That was my point, but the truth is staring you in the face. Watch the video of bush on that day.

Lemme guess, someone captured a still from the video that revealed the mark of the beast just above Bush's hairline. :rolleyes:
 
It never ceases to amaze

When Hitler came to power in Germany, he made speeches and said exactly what he wanted to do, Proclaimed it loudly and succinctly. He then set about building a huge military machine, that was obvious to even those who hid their head in the sand. Nobody believed him or took him seriuosly despite all of the evidence.

Now we have radical islam which has procliamed their goal loudly and with no room for interrpretation and set about acheiving it. You folks did hear about the World Trade Center right???

And yet there are a large number of people who dont believe that these turds are our enemy and that they will destroy us completely if they have the chance. Even though they have said it clearly in every speach and broadcast, and they have demonstrated it by litterally smacking you over the head with a 2X4.

We aren't addressing why they're pissed off, and we aren't at all concerned with modifying our behavior in a way that might minimize the number of new people who join the cause of the terrorists.

Newsflash they hate us because we are breathing and because they are sick morally bankrupt turds who torture their OWN WOMEN and CHILDREN, and dance when innocent civilians are killed.

They want to completely destroy us and our way of life, and turn the world into a 13th century Islaamic paradise.

:barf:

You folks make me sick to my stomach.
 
The tragedy of it is that this country wasted the good will that we earned by virtue of the 9/11 attack. I think it was subverted as an excuse to attack Iraq, which was (by all intel) the wrong country to hit to cripple Al Qaeda. If we actually want Al Qaeda to die, we would need to cut off it's money source which is Saudi Arabia. I would not have protested rolling tanks into that country.

As for the war on terror, the problem is that GWB has misused the term so universally it has lost all impact. It is just a phrase he uses to intimidate congress into doing his bidding (and forking over money) and silencing the opposition.

The truth is the only way we can ever "win" the WOT... and by win, I mean live in a world with relative security... would have been to demonstrate respect for the group of countries GWB has pissed off. Gunboat diplomacy is not going to win this one.
 
I don't expect you to believe me. I don't expect you to even listen to me. That was my point, but the truth is staring you in the face. Watch the video of bush on that day.
Don't tell me...."You could see it in his eyes, he knew" (copywrite:Ann Compton, ABC News).

Think ya jumped the shark this time?
 
I think this has gone way off course since it started. To reiterate:

-some think this is the "fight for our way of life" on par with WW II.

-some think they got lucky and the WOT is best treated as a legal matter, with Osama and Co brought to trial; stop invading other nations.

And then there is those (Democratic Senators) who would use it all to take away our firearms and right to self defense, esp. re: AWB.

I think the whole thing has become a political football, the last time there was even a semblance of national unity was in taking out Afghanistan.
And given the calls of "quaqmire" in 10 and 11/01, I'm not sure just how united we were then....
 
SOP for NORAD is to scramble fighters and escort planes when the go out of touch with the control towers. Not when they are hijacked, not when they deviate from course, though also in those situations. The transponders went off on 9/11. The pilots were scrambled but prevented from intercepting.
 
The transponders went off on 9/11. The pilots were scrambled but prevented from intercepting.

Who prevented them from intercepting, and why????

Remember that there were 4200+- civilian passenger flights in the air, and the flights in question were off course significantly, and had turned off their transponders. there were also a limited number of military planes aloft
like 12 covering the entire east coast.

Should they have just started shooting down any airliner they saw???

Also bear in mind that the military had never been called upon to shoot down a civilian airliner, nor had one been used as a Islaamic cruise missile before, and they had no idea how many airliners might have been involved.

Quite a difficult situation for the airforce and norad.
 
The big lie is that they are attacking us for our way of life.

Its a riechstag fire to allow him to go in and fight his christian holy war against muslims.

Wasn't the WTC attacked in 1993? Was 8 to 9 months in office long enough for GWB to set this up?

This may be a war which is fought by US military in countries which harbor terrorists. It IMO best be fought by law enforcement by improving the INS, not FBI, CIA, TSA, BATFE.
 
The Best Option

-some think they got lucky and the WOT is best treated as a legal matter, with Osama and Co brought to trial; stop invading other nations.

You left out the only option that makes sense:

I see today's world as if you moved into east Oakland (homicide capitol of the west coast). There are many ways you might think would get 'security" for yourself and your family.

1) One way would be to walk around with your AK-47 daring anybody to say anything. If nobody does, you just pick the ugliest guy and break his teeth out and put the muzzle under his nose.

That might give you a measure of security as long as you never sleep and can watch all your posessions and family members 24/7... which is impossible.

2) The other option is to try to learn to live in the neighborhood, even though you know some of them are drug dealers and low lifes. Show them more respect than they deserve and make them understand you will watch their backs if they do the same for you. It may not be great, but it does give you a way to know who the real threats are and what they are doing so you can be ready.


I see the world is like that and the problem is that gunboat diplomacy is now obsolete. I think to get to a safe place we need to admit we can't police the world. If some countries choose to establish repressive Islamic governments, it's not our job to overthrow them. Their own people have to rise up (aided by our CIA of course). And if they don't, then we accept that some countries choose to remain backward. If it's really bad, their people will leave.

We have to show respect for religions or things that call themselves religions simply because we have not been appointed to judge all things religous and eradicate "false doctrines".

Most important, we need to start following policies that show we understand not all Arabs are alike and not all Islamics are terrorists. If we alienate the entire Arab world, we will get the priviledge of living like the Israelis do: just counting time until the next attack.

That is not inevitable. Most Arabs want what most people want: food, shelter, a decent place to raise a family. Moreover, many Arab countries are simply not strong enough to expel terrorist elements from their countries because a large enough percentage of their population supports them that such an action would cause civil war. Example: Saudi Arabia has been paying blackmail to Al Qaeda for a decade to keep them from attacking their country. In recent months, OBL chose to break the deal because he has all the support he needs from wealthy Saudis. But the point is, the strongest and richest Arab state was not strong enough to stand up to OBL.

Point is, we can work with Arab nations to make them stronger and make them see they will have a better life when they work with us. Most of them are sick of all the terrorists as well, and the only reason those cells exist is because they hate us enough to make them believe it's worth the trouble. We can change that if we choose to.
 
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