Prince Yamato
Member
Why couldn't we just chamber the ARs/M4s in 7.62x39?
Are we outgunned in iraq?
- Thread starter GotGlock
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We can and in fact you can buy 7.62x39 ARs. But the question remains, why?
Jeff
Jeff
Eightball
Member
Indeedy so. It is an IDF "non-lethal" sniper weapon, as has been previously stated.
Is that sarcastic? You DIDN'T come out knowing all those things?
Actually, I did grow up thinking I knew about those things. Fortunately I realized how much I didn't know and have been a student ever since.
Jeff
Jeff
gaweidert
Member
The 262 Mk1 77 grain round in the AR15 has been getting rave reviews. One 5 man SF team working deep in Iraqi territory looking for SCUD sights early in the Iraq war ran into a reinforced company of Iraqi infantry. After the battle the score was 167 to 0.
The AK in full auto mode is a real spray and pray weapon. After 300 meters, not much good at all. I know that there are really nicely made AK variants out there, but the ones on the battlefield we face are just not that accurate a weapon.
My son has served in Afghanistan and has shot just about every one of the 40 rifles and shotguns I own. (I collect milsurps). He still prefers the M4 over the AK, SKS or even GASP!!!!! my Garand. He was offered a chance to carry the M14 and turned it down.
He is also a huge fan of good old Ma Deuce and the Mark 19 too.
The AK in full auto mode is a real spray and pray weapon. After 300 meters, not much good at all. I know that there are really nicely made AK variants out there, but the ones on the battlefield we face are just not that accurate a weapon.
My son has served in Afghanistan and has shot just about every one of the 40 rifles and shotguns I own. (I collect milsurps). He still prefers the M4 over the AK, SKS or even GASP!!!!! my Garand. He was offered a chance to carry the M14 and turned it down.
He is also a huge fan of good old Ma Deuce and the Mark 19 too.
HorseSoldier
Member
The Israelis concluded that regular, rounded helmet profiles are relatively easy to pick out, even when the helmet has camouflage netting or paint on it. So they started issuing the floppy, mesh helmet covers that break up the helmet's profile.
Judging from this particular question, issue or use is not universal, but you can find a lot of IDF photos from the last few years showing the loose, floppy covers.
(I'd note that the loose cover might be a good idea, but it also suggests to me that Israel doesn't really have wait a minute vines and briars and such. Can't imagine trying to get through the woods at most CONUS military bases with that thing on a helmet.)
HorseSoldier
Member
They've been available for civilian sales for years, as Jeff White noted.
Lots of problems feeding 7.62x39mm through a standard AR-15 lower, though. Google "SR-47" for the military issue attempt at a 7.62x39mm M4 type weapon.
Note that they never bought more than a handful of the things though -- it only makes sense if you're going in ultra-light on the logistics, or if you think 7.62x39mm brings some improvement in performance. Turned out that even the guys who took down the Taliban did okay, logistics-wise with standard M4s. Also turned out 7.62x39mm doesn't do much that 5.56mm does not do as well, in a lighter and more portable format.
Kaylee
Member
If I recall correctly, one of the essays in one of Cooper's books talks about the use of a suppressed .22 for riot control. He suggested something along the lines of wounding the primary agitators from a concealed position to take the steam out of a building riot without starting a general brawl. This was before the current vogue of less-lethal tech came about I believe, and I hadn't heard it had actually been implemented. Hunh. Learn something new every day.
To the "outgunned" question. Feh. Absolutely not, and it has nothing to do with rifles. Rifles are one small part of a much larger system.
And there's a reason their "fighting" consists of setting bombs for our guys and kidnapping and torturing each other. If they were anywhere close to thinking they were even on the same playing field, to say nothing of "outgunning" us, we'd be seeing direct assaults.
To the "outgunned" question. Feh. Absolutely not, and it has nothing to do with rifles. Rifles are one small part of a much larger system.
And there's a reason their "fighting" consists of setting bombs for our guys and kidnapping and torturing each other. If they were anywhere close to thinking they were even on the same playing field, to say nothing of "outgunning" us, we'd be seeing direct assaults.
Kaylee, the Izzies were going to go that route w/ their suppressed .22. Didn't work well for nonlethal suppression.
Dispatch, I'd love to see your source for this.
The M14 was a failure as a general-issue weapon. Get over it.
Logistics, logistics, logistics. That .243 is not appreciably less bulky than the .308, which means fewer rounds per soldier. As well, another problem with using these MBR-power cartridges in a modern FA weapon is
Controllability.
I'd love to see all you "real men" who want the M14 back in service loaded up with one with M-68 CCO, tactical white light, and PEQ laser. Plus 200 rounds or more of ammunition of course. Plus IBA, kevlar, NVG, gloves, eye pro, and water. You probably think you "need" a sidearm and a big honkin' knife, too.
If you ever get your wish, I hope you don't end up in my squad, 'cause I sure as hell don't want to have to carry you after you fall out.
John
Dispatch, I'd love to see your source for this.
The M14 was a failure as a general-issue weapon. Get over it.
Logistics, logistics, logistics. That .243 is not appreciably less bulky than the .308, which means fewer rounds per soldier. As well, another problem with using these MBR-power cartridges in a modern FA weapon is
Controllability.
I'd love to see all you "real men" who want the M14 back in service loaded up with one with M-68 CCO, tactical white light, and PEQ laser. Plus 200 rounds or more of ammunition of course. Plus IBA, kevlar, NVG, gloves, eye pro, and water. You probably think you "need" a sidearm and a big honkin' knife, too.
If you ever get your wish, I hope you don't end up in my squad, 'cause I sure as hell don't want to have to carry you after you fall out.
John
Heavy Metal Hero
Member
[cough] SCAR .308 [/cough]
I've be back from IRAQ for a little over five months now and I can say with nodout in my mind, that we are not "Out Gunned"
I went over with Missouri National Guard 35th ENG HHD 35th ID under U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for my first six months and all I carryed every day was M9 in the IZ Green-Zone and I felt more then safe.
For the last six months I was with A Co 164th ENG (MECH) North Dakota National Guard look for IEDs on the sides of the roads up north. I carryed my M9 and an M249 and the rest of the unit carryed M16A4s, M249s, and a few M4A1s for the 1LTs and the CO, we where MECH so we also use M2 50cals and MK19s.
We got in more then a few fire fights and we nevery felt out gunned. We where also right there next to the 4th ID (I got there combat patch) we where always hanging out and BS with boys from the 4th, we where in there OP so that covered are A@@ and we covered theres.
But the 4th had a mix of M16A2s, M16A4s, M14 DMRs, M249s and M240Bs, with few M4s as well. They always had all the fire power they needed to get out of whatever they got into.
I went over with Missouri National Guard 35th ENG HHD 35th ID under U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for my first six months and all I carryed every day was M9 in the IZ Green-Zone and I felt more then safe.
For the last six months I was with A Co 164th ENG (MECH) North Dakota National Guard look for IEDs on the sides of the roads up north. I carryed my M9 and an M249 and the rest of the unit carryed M16A4s, M249s, and a few M4A1s for the 1LTs and the CO, we where MECH so we also use M2 50cals and MK19s.
We got in more then a few fire fights and we nevery felt out gunned. We where also right there next to the 4th ID (I got there combat patch) we where always hanging out and BS with boys from the 4th, we where in there OP so that covered are A@@ and we covered theres.
But the 4th had a mix of M16A2s, M16A4s, M14 DMRs, M249s and M240Bs, with few M4s as well. They always had all the fire power they needed to get out of whatever they got into.
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Real quick on the Israelis using Ruger 10/22; Right now they use them as "hush puppy" guns, Sorry dog lovers. Apparently the Palestinians like to use guard dogs for early warning of Israeli raids. A couple pops of suppressed .22 solves that. Back in the day The IDF used the Ruger .22 for crowd control and shot protesters in the legs, whoever it led to too many fatalities so that practice was stopped.
Back to .5.56 AR vs AK. The ARs the US military are ALOT more accurate than the AK the militants have. That is why they use mostly IEDs and snipers, if they have superior firepower they would ambush small clumps of US forces on foot patrol and get into firefights more. You just don't see that as much, because the US forces would kick their butts. We are better trained, better equipped and our guns are more accurate.
Back to .5.56 AR vs AK. The ARs the US military are ALOT more accurate than the AK the militants have. That is why they use mostly IEDs and snipers, if they have superior firepower they would ambush small clumps of US forces on foot patrol and get into firefights more. You just don't see that as much, because the US forces would kick their butts. We are better trained, better equipped and our guns are more accurate.
Regarding the Israeli 10/22 usage...
It wasn't just the kneecaps. Nothing takes the fight out of a rock or Molotov-slinging Palestinian quite like a .22 rimfire slug in the testicles.
But the lowly .22 rimfire did indeed leave too many fatalities, so it was relegated to the hushpuppy role, and more less-than-lethal devices were employed for riot control.
As for being outgunned in Iraq, nope. We're outbombed. I came back from a tour of duty in the Green Zone last fall, and saw that firsthand.
It wasn't just the kneecaps. Nothing takes the fight out of a rock or Molotov-slinging Palestinian quite like a .22 rimfire slug in the testicles.
But the lowly .22 rimfire did indeed leave too many fatalities, so it was relegated to the hushpuppy role, and more less-than-lethal devices were employed for riot control.
As for being outgunned in Iraq, nope. We're outbombed. I came back from a tour of duty in the Green Zone last fall, and saw that firsthand.
Joe Demko
Member
You forgot the piano wire garrotte and spetznaz shovel.
C-grunt
Member
I was a Designated Marksman with the 3rd ID in 05 and the modified M-16s using the M262 will out shoot the scoped M-14 all day long. Before I get jumped here, we shot them side by side. The DMRs had faster follow up shots and was plain more accurate. It was a sub MOA gun. My company had 10 of the DMRs and 2 of the M-14s. I posted some pics last year of my fellow marksman and I with our rifles.
And from personal experience, the 5.56 does not have that hard a problem penetrating buildings. Also from my 2 tours, NO ONE has ever failed to stop with a 5.56 to COM. Not everyone died, but they didnt keep doing what made us shoot them in the first place.
And from personal experience, the 5.56 does not have that hard a problem penetrating buildings. Also from my 2 tours, NO ONE has ever failed to stop with a 5.56 to COM. Not everyone died, but they didnt keep doing what made us shoot them in the first place.
dasmi
Member
So basically it comes down to the shooter and rifle, not the round. We already knew that, right?
U.S.SFC_RET
Member
Remember that it is the training behind the rifle and not the rifle to a very large extent. The 5.56 round does the job quite well.
Thin Black Line
Member
I was in Iraq last year. We are not "outgunned" and the 5.56 is fine for
the work it is doing. Otherwise, we are using 50s and 240s mounted on
vehicles.
the work it is doing. Otherwise, we are using 50s and 240s mounted on
vehicles.
dispatch55126
Member
The M-14 was never adopted because they tried to make one weapon that could do anything. McNamara's "Whiz Kids" had a great idea that if they replaced the BAR, Garand, and Carbine into one weapon, it would cost less and make everyone a one man squad. The problems were that a combat load was about 100 rounds, it kicked to much for the average soldier to use it in the auto fire and to long to be a carbine. The M-16 and now M-4 are fine rifles but due to their faulty beginnings, they will always get criticism.
Faulty beginnings, you ask? Again, it was the whiz kids. The turned down over 100 recommendations to improve the rifle such as chrome lining the breach, changing from ball to stick powder and not issuing cleaning kits.
...and if anyone asks, Yes, I did watch that episode on the History Channel.
Faulty beginnings, you ask? Again, it was the whiz kids. The turned down over 100 recommendations to improve the rifle such as chrome lining the breach, changing from ball to stick powder and not issuing cleaning kits.
...and if anyone asks, Yes, I did watch that episode on the History Channel.
lionking
Member
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2006
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- 3,109
interesting,I've come to realize from threads like these there will never be a definative truth.I see vets themselves will argue whats better.
One thing is for sure,American rifles(modern) have always been made with marksmanship in mind compared to weapons like the AK.Someone said on another thread they hope the enemy never learns to shoot those AKs better which I agree.
One thing is for sure,American rifles(modern) have always been made with marksmanship in mind compared to weapons like the AK.Someone said on another thread they hope the enemy never learns to shoot those AKs better which I agree.
Heavy Metal Hero
Member
Hey don't worry we already "won" the war.
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