Are you a guncentric student or instructor?

[brownie0486]

Lets see a head count how many members [ students or trainers ] that are "gun" people with "tens" or "hundreds" hours in firearm courses have also attended professional "courses" in H2H, stick/double stick, defensive knife, flexible weapons training. Not dojo time, but specifically trained in that particular venue by a recognized trainer in that area of expertise.

As a student since graduating HS in 1969, I've spent in excess of 200 hrs in basic and high level professional rifle/and or sniper/counter sniper courses; in excess of 275 hrs in basic and advanced handgun courses; in excess of 180 hours in defenive/offensive edged weapons courses; perhaps 50 hours in double and single stick courses; and maybe 30 hours on flexible weapons like bandanas, bull whips etc.

The instructors were all in the top percentile of their respective fields. USMC, HK swat; HK sniper/countersniper; Bobby Lamar McDaniel [ Lucky McDaniel ] Mitch WerBell III; James Keating of Comtech; Mike Janich; US Army special forces trainers.

As a trainer presently in advanced handgun and rifle threat focused skills, I also train people regularly in H2H, defensive knife including a 3 year stint working for the S+W academy as their adjunct defensive edged weapons instructor to law enforcement and the average "joe citizen/ccw carrier"; and stick work.

If you don't have at least the same ability to potentially defend yourself with stick/knife/flexibles/H2H skills as your handgun skills you may be lacking in being "well rounded" and thus really capable of handling situations that arise in our daily lives.

As a firearms trainer, with a long well thought out and rounded background in using other "tools" over the last 30 years, I'm fairly capable of demonstrating skills that can be used to create the "time and distance" to get to the firearm I may be carrying. It would seem very important to know these types of skills when working on our pistol FoF skills would it not?

How many members, being ocassional or regular students of firearms, whether rifle or pistol have also spent the time and energy to be well rounded in their H2H skills and well as defensive knife skills? Law enforcement will run into those with knives about 8 times more than those with a gun on the streets [ which means we ccw carriers suffer the same possibility ].

In defensive knife skills, of extreme importance would be the unarmed against the blade attack long before your edged weapon would come into play you may be carrying. These H2H/unarmed against a knife defensive skills have to be ingrained to the subconscious to be able to "protect the core" and create the time and distance to get to a weapon we have on our person.

I hear the term "well rounded" thrown about by some people all the time, yet I wonder if they are truly well rounded or are they guncentric in their learning how to survive encounters on the streets.

To be well rounded to me has always meant you are extremely well versed in other weapons platforms and H2H skills [ and spent the resources/money as well as the time to attend high level training venues by recognized professionals in their respective fields ]. How many actually have taken the time to learn to truly be "well rounded" and not guncentric.

Something everyone should seriously consider. How many hours have you dedicated to H2H, stick, knife etc in relation to your firearms skills?

Are you truly a well rounded "warrior spirit" or really just guncentric?

Brownie

 

[taliv]

why exclude dojo time?

 

[brownie0486]

taliv,

Dojo time is not considered a training "course".

Too often people will believe that their local blackbelt dojo instructor is giving them skills that will work on the street. Most of those considered the top instructors in their respective fields that put on "courses" like Janich, Keating, Dionaldo, Emerson, Tarani, etc [ for blade work ] impart skills that would take years to acquire [ if at all ] in a dojo.

Training time [ days, weeks, etc ] with the top professionals in their respective field is usually going to be head and shoulders above what most will find in the local dojo blackbelt instructor.

I don't want training time with a general practitioner, I want training time with those recognized in their field according to their peers as the top instructors.

Brownie

 

[Rob Pincus]

I'd have to do some research to come up with a list of training hours.. but here's the highlights of my current programs:

I'm a certified SPEAR System and G.R.A.C.I.E. Instructor and work principles from both into courses frequently. I am also a Personal Defense Readiness Coach on the civilian side.
I teach Women's Assault Prevention several times a year, which has nothing to do with guns.

The Extreme Close Quarters Tactics and Counter Ambush courses that I run at VTC and elsewhere teach unarmed response skills to close quarters attacks that integrate with firearms use in contact, when appropriate.

-RJP

 

[brownie0486]

Rob,

From your post, you've trained with one or several of the Gracies and Tony Blauer for some time. Certainly well respected names in their respective fields for H2H skills. H2H skills such as yours are one of the most important pre-requisites to being well rounded IMO.

Personal Defense Readiness Coach would again be under Blauer?

I understand you train others in cqb/searching skills with a pistol/subgun, etc. Where does your background in these skills stem from, what instructors/organizations in these skills have you trained under? My own cqb search tactics with subguns and pistols [ swat type skills ] comes from Phil Singleton and John Meyers at HK.

Defensive knife skills with instructors recognized in their respective fields?

Any unconventional training such as flexible weapons, etc?

Brownie

 

[sacp81170a]

I want training time with those recognized in their field according to their peers

Recognized by who as their peers? You mention lots of folks. Does training with the all-Japan Kendo champion count? Do numerous gasshaku count? Do military training and schools count? Does training day in and day out with a Navy Seal who was a combat veteran in Vietnam count? Does training with the 20th generation bow maker to the Imperial Court of Japan count? Don't be so quick to discount dojo training, especially when that training takes place with world class instructors. Have you been to Angeles City to train in Filipino arts? I have...

 

[brownie0486]

Do military training and schools count? Does training day in and day out with a Navy Seal who was a combat veteran in Vietnam count? Does training with the 20th generation bow maker to the Imperial Court of Japan count?

Sure it counts, do you find those people regularly in your neighborhood local dojo?

Didn't think so.

Don't be so quick to discount dojo training, especially when that training takes place with world class instructors.

Sure it counts. Are those people recognized by their peers? Sure sounds like it to me.

Does the new blackbelt who was just promoted to train the students at xyz dojo whoe been given rank and promotion over a few years who can be found MOST of the dojo's nationwide?

No, that doesn't count.

We on the same page now?

Brownie

 

[brownie0486]

Do military training and schools count?

Maybe yes, maybe no. It is dependant on what training in what field. Having been in the military, basic training is just that, basic and not generally recognized for content by peers.

Does training day in and day out with a Navy Seal who was a combat veteran in Vietnam count? Sure it does.

Does training with the 20th generation bow maker to the Imperial Court of Japan count?

Sure it counts if you are making bows that you'll have at hand when you defend yourself, otherwise, it might not be relevant to the nature of the thread.

Do you find those people regularly in your neighborhood local dojo?

Didn't think so.

Don't be so quick to discount dojo training, especially when that training takes place with world class instructors.

Are those people recognized by their peers? Sure sounds like it to me, hence they'd meet this statement: I want training time with those recognized in their field according to their peers

Does the time spent with some new blackbelt who was just promoted to train the students at xyz dojo whose been given rank and promotion over a few years who can be found at MOST of the dojo's nationwide count?

No, that doesn't count.

We on the same page now?

Brownie

 

[Biker]

Brownie...

I wear a bandana but never considered using it as a weapon. It has softened blows to my head and been used to bandage wounds.

Got a site where I could check out it's use as a weapon? Tell ya the truth, you took me by surprise and I've used a number of innocuous objects as weapons in the past. Hell, I wouldn't mind having another tool at my disposal.

Biker

 

[brownie0486]

Biker,

http://www.jamesakeating.com/catalog2.html

Look at the 9th listing down for dvd's. Jim trained many of us in some flexible weapons skills in New Orleans back about 96.

Jims really a master at unconventionals, the bandana can be used to trap incoming, disarm blades, as well as a flexible striking weapon.

Brownie

 

[Biker]

I'll give it a peek. Thanks Bro.

Biker

 

[brownie0486]

My pleasure sir.

Brownie

 

[fjolnirsson]

Brownie, I'm with Biker. I wanna hear about the bandanna. I'm all about everyday objects as weapons.
I'd have to pullout the certificates and add the hours, but I have hundreds in handgun classes, and likely close to that in H2h stuff through academy training. Quite a bit of time in dojos, though not your run of the mill ones. Spent some time at a Gracie center a few years back. Truthfully, I long ago realized that, as you said, specifically geared training classes give me a lot more useful bang for my buck, as well as lasting lessons to build on, than do typical "schools".

Edited to add...
I see you've been here and left a link while I was typing. Thank you, I will check it out.

 

[brownie0486]

fjolnirsson,

See the above link given biker to the Keating Bandana training information.

I long ago realized that, as you sad, specifically geared training classes give me a lot more useful bang for my buck, as well as lasting lessons to build on

Good to hear you understand the mindset behind the post.

edited to add: My pleasure sir.

Brownie

 

[Biker]

Heh heh...I just realized that my bandannas are black. They must be EBBs...

Biker

 

[brownie0486]

Biker and fjolnirsson;
If you would like to check out flexible weapons further, you might take a look at this site

http://www.alliancemartialarts.com/review28.htm

I've trained with Scott Homschek at Keatings Riddle of Steel up on the snake river for a week. Scotts got a very interesting "Neck Whip" he makes. I purchased one at the Riddle on the river.

After playing with it for a month, I had him make me a custom necker thats thicker and longer than his "standard". They are braided of leather, stout, can be used in any way the bandanna can be used and became his double braided neck whip based on my request for one to be made.

Here's some information on them:

The Neck-Whip™ has the appearance of an elegantly braided leather necklace. But as with most things looks are deceiving. The Neck-Whips™ unique fastening system allows for rapid deployment in times of need. Constructed of 4 plaits of kangaroo leather over a latigo core the neck whip is both pliable and incredibly strong. It can be carried with you everywhere you go; it is inconspicuous but always ready. With some practice it can become a very effective self-defense tool.

The evolution of the Neck-Whip™ was a natural part of the flexible weapons curriculum developed and taught by Scott C. Homschek. He teaches the use of flexible weapons to block, trap, strike, ensnare and incapacitate an assailant.

While striking with a traditional whip can incapacitate an attacker; a Neck-Whip™ simply does not have enough mass to deliver a blow with enough force to completely stop an attacker. The purpose of a Neck-Whip™ for striking is to provide for a momentary distraction allowing for: escape, better positioning, and/or accessing another weapon. A strike that connects with the eyes of the assailant will potentially cause blindness and allow for escape.

When using the Neck-Whip™ to block, trap or choke the user will find the mechanical leverage created is much greater than that of the empty hand. A small amount of force applied to one or both ends of the neck whip will result in a significant amount of force being brought to bear on the attacker. This is especially true when the flexible weapon is used to trap limbs to immobilize an attacker.

As with any weapons training, it is strongly encouraged that safety be taken seriously. When working with a partner use solid braided nylon rope (3/8" - 5/8" thick) to prevent abrasive injuries. It is strongly advised that all participants use safety glasses when practicing flexible weapons techniques or developing their skills with the Neck-Whip™. Just as we use training knives to practice our blade skills with a partner, a relatively thick non-abrasive rope is critical to practice the Neck-Whip™ techniques with a partner.

Single Neck Whip (this is the standard model)
Is composed of a single core of 1/8" thick latigo with 4 plait kangaroo braiding cover. Finished thickness is approximately 3/16'' thick. Standard length is 36" of braiding with 6" latigo tail. Custom lengths are available. Available in black, dark brown, saddle (orange-brown), natural or a combination of two. Conceals easily under t-shirts and dress shirts.

Double Neck Whip
Is composed of a double core of 1/8" thick latigo with 4 plait kangaroo braiding cover. Finished thickness is approximately 1/4'' thick. Standard length is 36" of braiding with 6" latigo tail. Custom lengths are available. Available in black, dark brown, saddle (orange-brown), natural or a combination of two. A little heavier than a single - somewhat noticeable under a t-shirt or dress shirt.

Heavy Double Neck Whip
Is composed of a double core of 1/8" thick latigo with 8 plait kangaroo braiding cover. Finished thickness is approximately 5/16'' thick. Standard length is 36" of braiding with 6" latigo tail. Custom lengths are available. Available in black, dark brown, saddle (orange-brown), natural or a combination of two or four. Substantially heavier than a single - definitely noticeable under a t-shirt or dress shirt.

Here's the link where to purchase Scotts DVD. and a couple of pictures for your viewing pleasure

http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=1302

Brownie

 

[brownie0486]

The pics of the neck whips would not take on the edited post above;

The site appears to be not taking pics right now, I'll try to put them up later. They took fine on my own site, here's the link to the pics if you want to check them out. It's a thread on Scotts neckers with pics at post #20

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9733#post9733

Brownie

 

[theken206]

Biker, a fist full of quarters into a knot at the end of it and use it like a flail.

 

[brownie0486]

Here's a belt: They are discontinued but may still be available near 184.00 plus shipping through James Piorek at http://www.bladerigger.com/

The braid is hidden in the belt, the "buckle" is the loop end, pulled straight out of the belt, the "bananna" on the other end is curved to be comfortable while worn on the waist, made of titanium, it will not get through an airport like the neck whips.

Picture to the VGar system belt here: Yes, I've got one of these as well.

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9733#post9733 post #18

You may not be able to see the attached pics if not a member.

Brownie

 

[Saturnine]

I've trained in Aikido(insert lame comment about how it's not effective here) since before I've owned any guns. My Sensei isn't a Special Forces instructor or anything, in fact she's a five foot, one hundred and twenty pound, sixty-five year old woman and she can kick my ass like you wouldnt believe.

At the moment, my only defensive firearm is a Remington 870, but I plan on getting my CCW soon. Once I get that and some range time in, I'll feel comfortable knowing that I'm prepared for about 95% of the situations I may find myself in. I'd take any classes I can find, but there's not much around and I'm college student with no money and less time. For now that will have to do, I cant justify spending much more time or money on weapons or training, not that self defense is unimportant, but there's more likely events that I feel less prepared for.

 

[fjolnirsson]

Brownie,
That neck whip sounds like something I'd be very interested in. do you recall about what it cost you? I can't seem to find a link to it anywhere in what you posted...

 

[brownie0486]

625 Merchant Street - Ambridge, PA 15003 - Phone: 724-266-6330

email at [email protected]

Tell Scott Brownie [ from the Riddle ] sent you his way. He runs two dojo's with his wife in Pa. last I knew. The above is the dojo address and email if I'm not mistaken.

Brownie

 

[brownie0486]

Saturnine;

You have a long road ahead of you at your age. All I can suggest is use it wisely when you have the funds and time to do so.

Good luck in your endeavors after you graduate..

Brownie

 

[Saturnine]

That I do.

Luckily firearms are addictive and training is fun, so there'll be plenty more of each down the road.

May I ask what you do that requires counter sniping and all the other training you have? Are you a full time trainer? Or a LEO or in the military? If you just do it for fun, that's cool too.

I hope I never have a need for counter sniping in my field. The day bears start packing is the day I retire.

 

[sacp81170a]

Maybe yes, maybe no. It is dependant on what training in what field. Having been in the military, basic training is just that, basic and not generally recognized for content by peers.

EST (Emergency Services Team) School (6 weeks) at Lackland, AFB, Ground Launched Cruise Missile Defense Force Training at Davis-Monthan AFB (8 weeks) Air Base Ground Defense Basic (4 weeks) and NCO (6 weeks) Courses at Camp Bullis, TX. Basic and Advanced SWAT courses taught by the Denver office of the FBI. That's the major ones for starters.

Sure it counts if you are making bows that you'll have at hand when you defend yourself, otherwise, it might not be relevant to the nature of the thread.

Training in Kyudo is directly applicable to firearms training in terms of stance, concentration, and perfection of form. This was with Shibata Sensei at the Ryukyu Kyudojo in Boulder, CO.

Does training day in and day out with a Navy Seal who was a combat veteran in Vietnam count? Sure it does.

Do you find those people regularly in your neighborhood local dojo?

Didn't think so.

Uhh, actually, that's where I found Sensei Levi.

I understand what you're saying, though, the newly minted black belt in the traditional (or maybe I should say traditionally practiced) martial arts typically isn't given the authority to start his or her own dojo. Can't speak for those who are more commercially inclined. I have attended seminars with Dan Inosanto, Chai Sirisute, Bill Wallace, Chuck Norris and others. I regard those seminars as valuable learning experiences, but what I learned there I made my own by taking it back and practicing it at my local dojo.

The value here isn't how many seminars you've attended, it's how much you've taken of what you learned and incorporated into your own practice.

Does Scott Homschek by any chance happen to know Master Jeff Moonitz of Aspen? I received my Kyosa (instructor) certification from Master Moonitz in Tang Soo Do in 1986. He may or may not, depending on if he's a member of the U.S. Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation. (Master Moonitz' instructor was Chuck Norris, BTW, so I kinda think of him as "grampaw". )

I've seen some demonstrations of flexible weapons technique by the Kuk Sool Won guys in Denver, so I'd be interested to know if he picked anything up from them. I've also practiced flexible weapons in Dan Inosanto's seminars, so I know first hand how deadly they can be. A good ol' leather belt with a big buckle is unbelievably vicious in the right hands.

Sorry, I just have this problem with people lumping all the folks at "the local dojo" together without knowing who they're affiliated with. Sadly, your point is partly valid because of the profit motive inherent in teaching martial arts as a way to make money rather than as a calling. My apologies for any misunderstanding.