Are you a guncentric student or instructor?

[brownie0486]

May I ask what you do that requires counter sniping and all the other training you have?

Presently I only train others in some of the skills I acquired over the last 30+ years on the streets as a PI. Worked in LE for 9 years part time, and took advantage of the badge to attend the police only KH schools for swat, swat team leader, and counter sniper training.

Knew way back when if I was going to work the worst streets at time, and without backup normally, I'd better get some quality skills. Sought those who were considered by many to be the emeritus in their fields at the time.

Made it through 28 years working the streets, asking the wrong people the wrong questions, taking the wrong peoples pictures in the not so pleasant/dangerous areas of various cities like Boston and Providence, RI. among other mundain objectives/assignments.

The point is, I recognized the gun is not a talisman, I could not rely solely on the gun at any time. Many times, I had to go into areas where I'd be searched by BG's before beign allowed into some "joint" to begin with. Outnumbered, no piece or blade, better have something up your sleeve besides dumb luck [ though lady luck is directly responsible for my making it out of the business relatively unscathed ].

Without lady luck, all the various skills in the world will not necessarily get you out of a mess. Now I rely on my old age to visually convince people I'm harmless

Brownie

 

[brownie0486]

sacp81170a,

I'd say you had been in front of some good people there. Thats the type of training I've always sought out in their respective fields.

I'm sure Scott would know Master Jeff Moonitz of Aspen. In July of 2006 Master Homschek was promoted to the rank of 5th Dan at the World Tang Soo Do Association's World Championship in Anaheim, CA.

Can't say where Scott picked up on flexibles, we worked on them together at a 6 day event up on the Snake River with Master at Arms Jim Keating back in 2003. Thats where I met him.

No apologies necessary sir. Your training speaks for itself. Glad to have had the chance to speak with you in this venue.

Stay safe

Brownie

 

[Rob Pincus]

All the team tactics stuff that I currently teach comes from the culmination of things learned while operational and from various schools, but more importantly through what I've seen work and not work for the diverse teams that I've had as students. The current CQB curriculum I run is much more a product of development from the instructor side than any one course/doctrine I learned as a student. My CQB blocks for SF/NSW/LE all start with the same speech which lays out the fundamentals that anyone trained in this area would agree with regardless of the flavor (SFAUC, CQC, whatever...). I am very wary of people who teach based on the doctrine they used operationally over some long period of time (especially if it was a long time ago) people (instructors) have to progress, doctrines & techniques always do.

My long range rifle stuff includes a couple courses with Iron Brigade at BW and, most recently, a skills oriented course that Giles Stock was running for Hornady. This is the area that I train/practice in most for my own enjoyment.

I've been through a few courses under Alan Brosnan (TEES founder, currently training director for Olive) for Explosives handling and Breaching and I do refresher & surgical breaching blocks of instructions for the Army & Navy teams with breachers when they come through VTC.

I've been through ESI's EP and Protective Intelligence residency schools (both about 3 weeks). They offer quite a lot in terms of relevant trade craft. I also taught for ESI a few times early this decade.

Formal training with edged weapons started about a decade ago with Kevin "Mad Dog" McClung and continues whenever I get the chance to this day, but I don't specifically teach any edged weapons stuff. In fact, I've invited Mike Janich to come in an do the edged weapons DVD for my Personal Defense Video series.

Other non-firearms courses over the course of my EP and LE work and other endeavors included things like Hostage Negotiator School, Tactical Tracking and Crime Prevention Through Environmental Design.... Obviously, a list like this could go on and on.... I've been lucky in that my position on the staff of S.W.A.T. MAgazine has afforded me the opportunity to attend a lot of courses (good & bad) as well. Some courses made an impression, some weren't worth the time I invested. Some sound cool and some sound completely useless. I learned a lot about being a good instructor and putting together a good program through PADI's Instructor School, which doesn't sound high-speed at all, but was actually much more challenging than ANY tactical instructor school I've ever been to or heard of.

*****

This is a very interesting thread, so long as it doesn't start twisting towards the defensive & judgmental.......Brownie's invitation to voluntary list training areas outside of firearms specific stuff is fine.... trying to decide what "counts" is a bit irrelevant as a meaningful endeavor. Everyone is entitled to judge for themselves what training impresses them. From my perspective, listing this information for potential students means that they will decide what counts.

Notice that Brownie made an assumption about my skills because of who I've trained with. I wouldn't do that so quickly... I've seen plenty of guys who have been on cool teams, "seen the elephant", been to dangerous places at dangerous times and/or trained with some of the "most respected" instructors and still been uncoordinated, overconfident, sloppy with safety and have mediocre or worse skills.

I don't hire people based on resumes. They often don't reflect the man.
I learn cool new things about my staff instructors at VTC all the time that I might have known if I'd've read their resumes....but, I've read enough resumes to know that they don't tell the whole story and only present what the writer presumes will be important and impressive OR necessary.

-RJP

 

[brownie0486]

Notice that Brownie made an assumption about my skills because of who I've trained with

The assumption of skills wasn't because who you've trained with them, it was due to this statement.

I'm a certified SPEAR System and G.R.A.C.I.E. Instructor

Training with someone and being "certified" are quite different in my estimation. I hardly think Gracies or Blauer certfiy people that have just "trained" with them Rob.

This is a very interesting thread, so long as it doesn't start twisting towards the defensive & judgmental.......Brownie's invitation to voluntary list training areas outside of firearms specific stuff is fine.... trying to decide what "counts" is a bit irrelevant as a meaningful endeavor.

I think it ALL counts. The more background with various weapons and H2H skills you possess, the more diverse you are in your personal self defense.

If you don't have at least the same ability to potentially defend yourself with stick/knife/flexibles/H2H skills as your handgun skills you may be lacking in being "well rounded" and thus really capable of handling situations that arise in our daily lives.

Having substantial training time on various weapons over an extended amount of years is quite important. One isn't going to have a full grasp of, say defensive unarmed against a knife, in one or two "courses" where blades are concerned. It takes more than most are willing to dedicate in time or expense to become close to proficient at bladecraft. Where blades are concerend particularly, if you don't train often, and maintain the skills through training with others, what you learned, say just two years ago and were able to accomplish is not going to be worth much on the streets tomorow.

The listing of approximate hours trained on eack skillsset was not a form of resume. It demonstrated a fairly well rounded set of skills in differing platforms over many years. In keeping with the original question of "are you guncentric", I thought it appropriate to at least demonstrate I myself was not guncentric in anyway.

Quite often I see people who think they've got a weekend or week of defensive knife under their belts who really are deficient in the skills necessary to survive an encounter against the blade because they don't take what they learned and train afterwards. It's a diminishing skills set. If you don't train it often, keep it fresh, reactive/instinctive, at the forefront, your skills will not be what you think they are when the time comes.

To be well rounded and proficient in various skills [ they are one and the same for the reason I explained above ] , you need to train often in those skills, no less so than the gun. It's not easy to be well rounded in your SD skills, even more difficult to maintain that well roundedness.

Brownie

 

[taliv]

my initial query about dojo time was because my experience (kenpo/iaido) and the conventional wisdom seems to me to be that handgun/H2H/knife/etc skills are extremely perishable. you have to practice constantly to be able to use them effectively. my "style" stresses as a philosophy exposing yourself to TONS of stuff, but choosing a small subset to keep in muscle memory.

my question wasn't judgmental or defensive. i took one of brownie's classes last year and he started teaching some H2H stuff during a break and I recognized all the techniques he did from the aikido class at my local dojo. (i'm not saying it was aikido, just that the same techniques are taught in that class) so I was somewhat surprised to hear him specifically exclude that and I was curious why.


so I'll admit to falling into the guncentric category, I suppose. I've taken carbine/rifle/handgun classes from more than half of the top-tier instructors and I have plans to complete that list in the next 2 years. (I'm following the "everybody gets one before anybody gets two" plan; taking one class from everyone before i go back for 2nds)

yet I'm pretty happy with my local dojo instruction and I think it meets all my H2H needs (miniscule) at the moment. It will be several years if ever before I work any world-class H2H training into my schedule.

I would like to mention that my local place teaches flexible weapon (mostly belt) techniques and they are among my favorites.


Still, there is a H2H skill maintenance problem for most people because you can go to a range by yourself and practice the shooting skills you learned in class last month, but for H2H, you really need a partner or two. How do you guys keep those skills sharp?

 

[MostlyGenius]

Of course people are going to get defensive about resumes. Good thread but poorly executed, I think Rob hit the nail on the head.

(Almost) all training is good training, it's just that some training is better than others. Better means that it is broadly applicable, easier to be effective with, and more directly relevant to the subject at hand. Our personal biases make it easy to discount the training and experience of others (especially if we haven't met them or seen them perform.)

I think you make a good point about well rounded training and it is a valid question if people spend proportional amounts of effort on other skills. I certainly believe that we should, but I don't think that we should stop at combatives, what about driving? first-aid? etc.

 

[brownie0486]

my question wasn't judgmental or defensive. i took one of brownie's classes last year and he started teaching some H2H stuff during a break and I recognized all the techniques he did from the aikido class at my local dojo. (i'm not saying it was aikido, just that the same techniques are taught in that class) so I was somewhat surprised to hear him specifically exclude that and I was curious why.

Taliv, much of what I've been train in by Keating, et all is a compilation of some of the better techniques these men think are worth giving others. I'm not surprised there's overlap in what I've been trained in and some of the martial skills, in fact quite a bit of overlap would be normal based on how Jim stuctures his courses. He's known to have mastered several styles and demo's/trains those he feels fit into a well rounded program for the students.

the conventional wisdom seems to me to be that handgun/H2H/knife/etc skills are extremely perishable. you have to practice constantly to be able to use them effectively.

I would definately agree with the above general consensus and wisdom about the skills being perishable. I train regularly in the various skills sets to maintain the skills as much as possible. It's not enough to say, I've trained with this person or that person, it doesn't mean you have the skills you were given at the present time. You have to maintain the training or degrade.

Good to hear you get some flexibles training. The concepts behind some of these skills carry over nicely into stick and knife and not many get flexible weapons training. I deemed myself fortunate to be part of that training, not to mention it was a blast to play with in the furtherance of knowledge.

I think you make a good point about well rounded training and it is a valid question if people spend proportional amounts of effort on other skills. I certainly believe that we should, but I don't think that we should stop at combatives, what about driving? first-aid? etc.

but for H2H, you really need a partner or two. How do you guys keep those skills sharp?

You do indeed need partners to work on the H2H skills. I let a few guys come over on Friday nights ocassionally, and one who can be here at times during the day if our schedule fits, and we'll say we'll train an hour, then stop, but it turns into 3 hours before we know it.

They get training, I get to keep my own skills sharp and we sweat it up out here in the desert. At the end of the session with blades or H2H, I'll let them adlib and attack anyway they like. Thats the important time for me and that which keeps me at the top of the training in these skills. You learn from your mistakes under pressure.

Brownie

 

[brownie0486]

MostlyGenius;

Good post.

I think you make a good point about well rounded training and it is a valid question if people spend proportional amounts of effort on other skills. I certainly believe that we should, but I don't think that we should stop at combatives, what about driving? first-aid? etc.

Driving skills, Bobby Bass, VP of stunts unlimited, Ga. 1981. You see him in the "Bandits" Trans Am everytime you watch Smokey and the Bandit. Ex SFer, tough as nails, he also showed us some defensive edged weapons that week. I've been known to rent a car locally and take it out for a spin or two to stay up on those skills as well. Love the button hooks, J turns and reverse 180's, what a blast.

Frist aid skills [ good thought process ], I'm certified nationally in Wilderness First Responder with the local Search and Rescue out here in the Sonoran desert. 80 hours over 10 straight days last summer.

The point to the thread was "are you well rounded" as a student or instructor, as you suggest. It's not about what I have or don't have, it's about the time invested in being well rounded in skills and the amount of time you spend between them to maintain being well rounded on the street, and not becoming guncentric. I listed a fairly representative amount of hours in each skills set, if one noticed, the training in various venues is fairly well rounded, as I believe it should be.

The training continues.

Brownie

 

[hankdatank1362]

I got you all beat... 8 hrs of CCW class and untold weekends of backyard plinking!


Seiously, I hope to become LEO after I wrap up college, and I think my handgun skills are up to par for patrol duty. However, I am afraid I am lacking in any sort of H2H, with the exception of a year of Judo, when I was much younger.

Definitely intend to seek out training when my time and wallet free up.

 

[Rob Pincus]

Oh yeah.. forgot about driving & medical stuff... like I said, the list can go on and on....

Meanwhile:

I said: "Notice that Brownie made an assumption about my skills because of who I've trained with"

Brownie said: "The assumption of skills wasn't because who you've trained with them, it was due to this statement:"
"I'm a certified SPEAR System and G.R.A.C.I.E. Instructor ," said I.

Brownie then said: "Training with someone and being "certified" are quite different in my estimation. I hardly think Gracies or Blauer certfiy people that have just "trained" with them Rob."

Again, I have to repeat the that the assumptions are all dangerous territory. I, for example, certify Combat Focus Shooting Instructors. I do NOT certify Combat Focus Shooting Demonstrators.... teaching and doing are two very different things. I still have over a 50% failure to certify rate in CFSID courses... although now that the book has been out for almost a year, the DVD for about 6 months and the popularity of the system is spreading, the student instructors are coming to the 3 day cert course more educated and passing in higher numbers. They have to pass a timed written test with over 90% and pass a subjective teaching test. Those tests are after participating in over two days of intense discussion of the program. Those conversations are part of the subjective test also. They do not have to pass a shooting test, nor do I really care how well they shoot, as long as they understand and can teach the program very well and handle a firearm competently, they can get certified as an Instructor.

Tony Blauer and Royce Gracie are both certainly professionals and I certainly met their requirements to earn my instructor certs from them... but without having gone through that process, one should be careful about making assumptions about what it entails or proves. I consider Tony a friend and continue to train with him as often as possible (most recently in August of this year) and have been involved with SPEAR in one way or another pretty much constantly since 2001. Tony and I have worked on various projects together. I've taught for him, with him and been a student in a variety of his courses in a variety of places. I've spent a total of 5 days with Royce and haven't talked to or trained with him in years. So, just using those two examples, the "across the board" assumption is a bit skewed.

I say this not for Brownie, as I think he gets my point and shouldn't feel a need to defend himself for any reason. My picking apart what was certainly meant to be a compliment would be pretty crappy actually, if I wasn't trying to make a point. I'm trying to use it as an example to those who would judge by the resume...... To me, simply saying "I'm a certified SPEAR Instructor" doesn't really reflect the intensity of my work with Blauer or the depth to which I've worked in that program and integrated its principles into much of what I do. Similarly, saying that I'm a certified G.R.A.C.I.E. Instructor kinda sounds a lot cooler than it is. I have a huge amount of respect for Royce and his teaching and got a lot out of the time I spent training with him, but that course was only 5 days long and I've not really followed up on it nor has there been a lot of support/contact to the instructors... but, it is a solid LE Grappling program that I have integrated portions of it into various courses for years. so, Blauer's certification process was much more involved than Royce's, requiring follow-up and a demonstration that you absorbed the material. The G.R.A.C.I.E. program was a typical LE Instructor Cert Course, show up, complete the course, get the cert.


Judge people by their skills and instructors by their information and you'll be much better off. If you can't see/hear those things for yourself, the next best thing is to ask someone you know has first hand information for their opinion... consider the source and let that influence you.

 

[1911 guy]

Some folks have to be "guncentric".

I recently attended the funeral of a family friend. His name was Matt, he'd been a hunter all his life, joined the USMC to avoid being drafted into the Army. Served five months in Korea, got wounded and was never quite the same physically or emotionally.

The point is, he had to be "guncentric" in his training. At almost eighty years old, he's not going to go all krav maga on someone. Neither is he going to use a knife. He did well to place all his effort in mastering the one tool he was capable of using effectively.

Myself, I train with a handgun, rifle, carbine, shotgun, knife and empty hand. Toss in some refresher first aid, go with the wife to partner tactics classes once in a while. At some point down the road, I'll be where Matt was. Too physically spent to take someone on in a fist fight, knife fight, even a bandanna fight.

Now about training in 900 different areas. For the average person whose concern is protecting his family in a dangerous world, it's worthless and a waste of time and money.

I used to jump out of airplanes, fly around in helo's and do cool stuff. I've blown stuff up, shot at people, people have shot at me. I've had some very nifty training in everything from basic medicine to submachineguns to "eight ways to kill with a dirty look". None of that is worthwhile to me now. I'm keeping my wife and son safe, not coming over the horizon to wipe out the enemies of freedom and democracy. The last act of carnage I committed was pouring gas on an ant hill this summer. Not very tactical, I'm sure they saw me coming.

If you're the average Joe, identify the skills that are useful. Not the skills that would be cool to learn. If you have more than about 8-10 general categories (ex: handgun, shotgun, first aid, etc.), you lead an interesting life and I don't expect it to be a long one. Now train up on those skills. Repeat periodically.

 

[sacp81170a]

There's so much good stuff in this thread that it's hard to absorb it all, much less respond. I think 1911 guy hit the bullseye:

If you're the average Joe, identify the skills that are useful. Not the skills that would be cool to learn. If you have more than about 8-10 general categories (ex: handgun, shotgun, first aid, etc.), you lead an interesting life and I don't expect it to be a long one. Now train up on those skills. Repeat periodically.

Warriors in Japan had a list of skills that were considered essential. In no particular order:

Kenjutsu
Kyujutsu (archery)
Naginatajutsu
Sojutsu (spear)
Suieijutsu (combat swimming and river fording)
Kajutsu (fire starting and demolition)
Bajutsu (horsemanship)

The list goes on, with jujutsu, heihojutsu, hojojutsu, all the skills necessary for combat and survival in that age. Note that the list doesn't stop at kenjutsu.

Taking their idea as an example and 1911 guy's astute observations, what would our list of "non-gun centric" skills include? I'll take a stab (pun not intended ) at it and others can critique and modify. To me, the Average Joe CCW holder needs to be proficient in the following skills (if there are no physical limitations):

Firearm handling and marksmanship under stress, both with the handgun of choice and the longarm of choice(this is a given.)

Some form of hand-to-hand fighting(Proficiency is the goal. It's not necessary to be an MMA champ. It is necessary to know how to defend yourself long enough to bring your firearm into play when faced with that situation.)

Some form of edged weapon training(more as stress inoculation than relying on it for defense. You don't want to be freaked out if someone pulls a knife.)

Some form of impact weapon training(see the preceding item.)

Defensive driving (not just staying out of accidents, but evading VCA's with hostile intent.)

First aid.

Some knowledge of the law and police procedure.

This list of skills is necessarily shorter than than the list that would be required of professional warriors (read, law enforcement, private security and military personnel). All the other training is great, but how many of us have explosive breaching, defending an airbase, or airborne assault in our future?

That said, what's the best, most accessible training program for each of these? Some of them can be practiced outside of a formal class setting, but all of them require at least some contact with a qualified instructor. Suggestions? Any additions to the list?

 

[brownie0486]

1911 guy,

We lose more people like Matt all the time now. The ww2 vets are dying off at something like 6 a day now. My condolenses to your family on the loss of a friend.

I'm sure you didn't think I wrote the original post with the idea the audience was your family friend Matt, let alone anyone else who would be reading this that suffers debilitating maladies or disabilities to some degree or another and is otherwise incapable of training in various ways other than a firearm.

Now about training in 900 different areas. For the average person whose concern is protecting his family in a dangerous world, it's worthless and a waste of time and money.

900 different areas? I mentioned only 4 or 5 areas of concentration. The mindset that it's a waste of time to have some basic skills in H2H or defensive knife is a common one among people who are guncentric. I mentioned that law enforcement in most of the country see an average of 8 knives to one gun on the streets previously.

The chances of being a victim of gun violence vs blade violence is fairly low for the majority. Yet we see a disparity of people continuously training for the gun and for the most part their ignoring H2H and defensive balde skills.

I'm of the impression that H2H skills should be high on the list of that which one would want to have if at capable of training them. They are the skills that will allow time and distance to be created to access their own weapon quite often. The H2H skills also would include skills against a knife attack.

You can't protect your family very well if you can't protect yourself first. You may just be the first line of defense, and being well rounded in skills allows you a whole world of options that you'd otherwise not have for any given potential SD situation.

The crux of the issue I've presented is this: Too many ignore their options to train in other venues in lieu of the firearm that are capable of doing so. They'll take 40 courses in firearms over a decade in time and not one H2H or defensice knife course.

They've fallen into the trap of being guncentric. When you make the mistake of relying on one tool to get you through every potentially dangerous situation you set yourself up to be potentially weak in other areas of SD.

I'm getting up there in "time" myself. My physical abilities are not what they once were, but they are as good as I can be for where I am presently in time and space because I trained when I was younger and have skills I'd not have otherwise. I have more options than someone who has not trained in H2H and defensive knife.

The chances of having to use your firearm in your lifetime are low statistically yet people train to that discipline to extremes at times. It's no less valid than the chances of having to use physical skills to defend yourself, and not making the effort to have a working knowledge of how to use your hands to break away from an attack.

I think people should access their training time and attempt to become more well rounded generally in other skills if they are capable of doing so. You may never use those skills, but then again you may have to. You increase your chances of surviving an altercation the more you know, it's that simple.

sacp81170a:

Thats a good list for most people. I hope the thread has generated some thoughts by others in the areas you've mentioned and they take steps to seek to be proficient in and move in that direction.

Brownie

 

[Matthew Temkin]

I see myself as a fairly well rounded instructor.
In my younger days firearms were not part of my world so I was more into the unarmed/knife/stick fighting aspect of self defense.
Once I became a peace officer and was forced to carry a revolver I then began to explore the armed aspects of close combat
I do a lot of teaching at police firearms seminars and I find a TOTAL lack of interest there in anything except guns and armed tactics.
I have tried to teach the intergration of the two but to no avail.
I like to think that much of my training was on the practical side and a lot of it was very informal.
I can't say that tactical driving and gutter medicine has held much interest for me.
I have studied advanced first aid and it allowed me to take life saving action on a few occasions.

 

[1911 guy]

My list.

Here's my list of things I train on. I consider these things to be the essentials *for me*.
1) handgun. Mines a 1911, I shoot my wifes' Sig ocassionally.
2) shotgun. There's a 12 bore on the door of our bedroom.
3) carbine. Serves the same role as the shotty, longer range.
4) knife. This is my back-up / retention tool
5) hand to hand. Because sometimes I'm naked.
6) First aid, CPR, etc. I've got a family, the world's not a safe place.
7) Driving. We all own cars, let's know how to use them.
8) State and local law. IANAL, but I need to cover my own butt.

I don't train in all these every year. One handgun course, since that's my primary weapon now, and one or two other classes covering other topics.

My comment about "900 different skills" isn't meant as a crack at learning a new skill set. What I've been seeing on this thread is a reitteration of "I've studied X, Y, and Z methods of knife fighting". So what? Learn one method well. When I go to a school, I want to see instructors who have a solid, proven technique and teach it well. I do NOT want, and will walk away from and badmouth, a school that fosters a name dropping atmosphere and teaches a half-asses compilation of a dozen different ways to zip your fly.

If I'm at your school to learn Kung Fu, I couldn't care less that you studied Ninjitsu under Grand Master What'sHisFace. I want to know who you studied under and how well you know the technique you're supposed to be teaching me.

I hope nobody takes this as a personal attack, I was just noticing a little of it going on here and there and feel it does a disservice to the average schlubb like me to let our training get pulled in too many directions.

 

[Rob Pincus]

1911,


If the world were a sports arena, I think you'd be spot on. If you want to be a boxer, go find the best boxing coaches you can, learn from them, be disciplined and drive on. Unfortunately, the world is not a sport and you need to get as much exposure as you can to what's going on out there. Does the average citizen need explosive breaching training? No, of course not... in fact, he couldn't get into a course taught by the few schools that deal with the issue. But intellectual isolation or failure to explore the options within the plausibly necessary skill sets isn't a good policy. Techniques constantly develop and one of the main forces that allow development is cross-training and inter-agency cooperation. Isolating yourself, or learning form those who have, is a sure way to get really good at one thing, but not necessarily reaching your potential in the best things.

You are right that some instructors will give you a laundry list of options for any specific situation and use phrases like "this is just another tool for your tool box"...... A higher quality approach is to be familiar with that laundry list o options, dissect them based on experience and reality and then offer your students what they think are the best options. To put blinders on and only consider a limited number of options, however, is irresponsible.

As for the who/where people studied other techniques, there is some value in knowing who people trust for information and spend their time with.

With resources like the internet, countless books & videos available, dozens of quality instructors touring the country and several options for good schools in various regions, even the average Joe can get a great overview of defensive skills at a variety of financial and time commitment levels..... and should.

-RJP

 

[1911 guy]

Quote:
But intellectual isolation or failure to explore the options within the plausibly necessary skill sets isn't a good policy.
<>Agreed. Explore your options, choose one or two that are viable for you, then become proficient in them.

Techniques constantly develop and one of the main forces that allow development is cross-training and inter-agency cooperation.
<>Yep. And procedures are updated to relfect these changes. There still aren't multiple procedures, there's one updated procedure.

but not necessarily reaching your potential in the best things.
<>You don't reach your potential in anything by spreading yourself too thin. Champion tennis players don't practice golf.

A higher quality approach is to be familiar with that laundry list o options, dissect them based on experience and reality and then offer your students what they think are the best options.
<>Again, agreed. But why do we keep the useless things on the list? Make the laundry list shorter.

With resources like the internet, countless books & videos available, dozens of quality instructors touring the country and several options for good schools in various regions, even the average Joe can get a great overview of defensive skills at a variety of financial and time commitment levels..... and should.
<> I agree 100%. Part of that is focused training to make the most of limited resources.

 

[Sweatnbullets]

Here is how I have prioritized my training. The courses that I teach right now touch on the top nine (plus a couple of more further down on the list.) Prioritizaton is a very personal thing. We all have limited time and what you decide to prioritize is a decision that nobody else is in the position to judge.

Situations dictate everything and nobody has your same situation.

Mindset
Knowledge on the use of force
Tactic fundamentals
Handgun fundamentals
Physical fitness
Hand to hand fundamentals
Low Light fundamentals
Advanced Combat handgun
Advanced Low Light
Basic Knife
Improvised weapons
Integration of H2H, knife, and gun fundamentals
Shotgun fundamentals
Practical rifle fundamentals
Precision rifle fundamentals
Advanced tactics
Advanced H2H
Advanced shotgun
Advanced practical rifle
Advanced knife
Advanced integration of H2H, knife, and gun
Advanced precision rifle
Basic stick

I see training as a never ending quest. I still have things that I need to add. First aid and driving are at the top of that list.

 

[Rob Pincus]

1911,

I'm glad you brought up the Tennis player and golf.... that's kinda the point, you're still in a sports model. People have to be more well rounded in survival skills. Going back to the boxing analogy, how well would a boxer do in UFC? The world is moving fast and a lot of the old paradigms have fallen.... the idea that you can find one true source of information and have no need to look further is frustrating to some, but that doesn't make it less real.

I'm sure you've spent enough time on these forums to know that this statement is questionable at best:

There still aren't multiple procedures, there's one updated procedure.

Inside of a "school" that may be true... but you can do a quick search and find about 6-8 different ready positions, for example, that are taught by respected quality instructors or schools. All of them can be explained and defended by professional instructors and most of the people deserving that title could explain why each one has advantages and disadvantages...but, the instructors that isolate themselves in one dogmatic thought process might only have considered 1 or 2 of them and, while they tell they're students that they are "updated", they are not even capable of considering the value of the other techniques.

All that said, if one instructor is teaching 8 different ready positions, they are probably spreading the information to thin for any student, let alone the average student. The job of the instructor/program developer is to research those 8 and come up with the best for his student.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

I took up AiKiDo about 12 years ago. In the first six months, one of the advanced students stepped up the speed of my training when he and I would pair up and started coming at me faster- once I started doing more rigorous breakfalls.
Anyway, he came at me in realtime with a rubber knife one day during Tsuki Kotegaishi practice and I froze with hands in the air and just started backing up with the knife inches from my chest. He kept running at me until I hit the wall behind me and the rubber knife folded up on me.
My sensei had a good laugh and I had a lot to think about.
Since then, I've been working on re-hardwiring myself into someone who reacts without any conscious effort.
And, that's hard to do.
Whatever I need to do, I want to do without thinking. And, gun centric training doesn't help me near as much as training with different groups, people who are very very good at what they do, and not the local strip mall ninjas.
For a while I pursued Hapkido, because I liked the rough and tumble feel. But I left it when the world combat hapkido federation went all commercial and started telling me how little time it would be before I had my black belt. For the past few years, I have just gone from dojo to dojo learning what I can from whom I can and work constantly on re-hardwiring my responses.
So, I guess I haven't really trained with any world class people. Haven't been able to afford the price of admission to go to big seminars since I'm a writer and make enough money to pay the rent, buy a few parts for my land speed racing car, and buy ammo.
I just do the best I can with the resources I have. I try to be discerning and stay away from the black belt mills though. And, recently, I've become interested in more MMA and Pankration styles as well.
But, it's hard to get that kind of training when you can't afford the ticket.
But, that's the way it goes.
And, I'd say there are a lot of people like me who would like the training, but have to put groceries on the table and a roof over their head before training. Maybe it makes me less of a ninja toughguy, but it's just the way it is.
But, it's high on my list of priorities above having a nice car or a brand new pistol of the month or a safe full of guns.
I have one 357 that I think I'm pretty good with and I have some core skills that I practice regularly.
Other than that, I don't really know what to say on this topic other than, I wish I had more money because I would certainly make the time. I'm sure there are a lot of other High Road users who feel similar.
C'est La Vie.

 

[brownie0486]

We all have limited time and what you decide to prioritize is a decision that nobody else is in the position to judge.

The decision on what to train for skills is prioritized by the criminals you'll run into on the street. Your particular prioritization of training should be based on what you are likely to encounter. Various personal security skills should take precedence over all else first.

Instead of quadding or golf or basketball, time would be better spent on training in SD skills. Once you have those under control to some degree, you can go play with the quads and hit the fairways. Instead of taking 40 courses of MT firearms training as a training junkie in one discipline, one could instead invest the time and finances to train to the same level of proficiency in blade, H2H and other unconventional weapons systems.

In other words, be more "well rounded" in the SD arena.

Brownie

 

[sacp81170a]

But, it's hard to get that kind of training when you can't afford the ticket.

That's the conundrum. I teach classes fairly infrequently(once a month or so for basic classes, once or twice a year for more advanced classes), because that's not really my profession. Guys like Rob and brownie have made the investment in training and capital to make a business of what they do. They also have first class facilities that not many have available to them. I think probably the best most of us are going to be able to do is try and get to some of the big name training once every few years or so and find a smaller, local group to train with in the meanwhile.

That's exactly what we did at the Cheyenne Budokan. The primary styles were Wado Ryu and Kendo, and we had some world class instructors come and visit or attended their training sessions once a year or so. Otherwise, we welcomed students from any style, especially those with something to teach, and had regular "style sharing" classes with folks from other arts. We had a core of experienced black belts (I was one of them) whose basic philosophy was "I want to pass on what I've learned rather than making a living at this." We always had more empty hand students than Kendo students simply because the starting costs for equipment were so much greater.

That's what's needed, a system of local schools with the ability to access higher levels of training on a regular basis. That's where we may be able to access the local dojos and expand the training available to their students with firearms skills. We benefit, they benefit, shooting sports get spread more widely, and everybody gets a chance to learn more. Hmm, I think I'm gonna check with some of the local guys about this...

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Various personal security skills should take precedence over all else first.

I'd be interested to know what you think these should be, Brownie (and anyone else).
I'm always pretty critical of myself and trying to not take the wrong roads.
Not trying to derail the thread here. I'll start a new one, if I need to. With a small toolbox, you gotta make sure you pack the right tools.

 

[taliv]

Does the average citizen need explosive breaching training?

no, but if someone offered such a class, sign me up! i'd even skip camp perry next year to blow stuff up.

 

[brownie0486]

sacp81170a;

Intersting thoughts there.

wheelgunslinger,

With a small toolbox, you gotta make sure you pack the right tools.

Absolutely correct.

Various personal security skills should take precedence over all else first.

I'd be interested to know what you think these should be

H2H skills would be high on my priority list. You can get H2H skills training in the blades at the same time. I was quite surprised that the first unarmed defensive edged weapons course I took with Jim Keating actually transitioned to unarmed with no weapons involved seemlessly.

I had not thought much about it, but after 3 hard days with Jim, it was quite revealing that if you failrly defend against a blade attack and minimize or potentially negate the damage from such attack, it's not going to be as difficult to defend yourself when there's no contact weapon in his hand with the same principles and skills [ such as a collapsing startle response discussed here: http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172 ]

The blade skills are considered a "high art". I'd not consider training with anyone but Jim Keating, Mike Janich, Ray Dionaldo [ who most have never heard of out of southern Fla ], Tarani and maybe Emerson myself, but I've looked at what people offer for over a DECADE and have decided on the first three on that list as the primary trainers for me. OMMV here.

So you can incorporate your blade training with the H2H seemlessly, get two of the essentials, IMO, in one venue over a few years of courses with the instructors, and then practice the hell out of it till it's second nature and instinctive. Learning effective H2H and blade skills is important, but then training on your own with a partner or two is paramount to not losing the skills and developing them till they are just part of your makeup. If you can get comfortable with your unarmed hand skills you are further down the road than most toward controlling your environment when the BG's come callling.

Secondary to the H2H/Unarmed knife skills for me would be stick/baton training. I discovered the stick back in 1981. What that training brought to my plate was becoming more ambi-dextrous in as little as 10 hours. I've been able to get people to a level of proficiency with a stick in that time frame using two stick training where after just that short a time, they were told to drop their primary side stick and discovered they now could use the arm/hand on the offside with proficiency which then transitions to unarmed and knife skills with either hand quite effeciently and in that 10 hours, they didn't realize they were gaining the off hand proficiency until shown they had developed it well.

The stick also has commonality with knife defense. Many of the same skills for one can be used in the other making it easier to transition from one to the next, until all three just meld together into an effective SD skills set. You could use a curtain rod, stick off the ground, break a brooms handle off, carry a cane, you get the idea.

Skills will transfer to other "field expedient" uncoventionals not considered or easily recognized as weapons, you can be armed, or arm yourself immediately most times when you are not armed to begin with.

Brownie