Are you a guncentric student or instructor?

[sm]

Zero hours.

I'm just a dumb Southern Boy that grew up before gun schools and training schools.
All I have are what Mentors & Elders passed forward, keep passing forward.

Not that some of them *might* of had some lessons, hours, or even notoriety.
From Military to LEO, to even Criminals themselves.
How better to understand how a criminal sneaks up and shivs another with a screwdriver, or spoon than to have a Con, Ex con show you?
Pick-Pockets are interesting folks too, so lessons as such to "know thy enemy" and therefore have some idea what to watch for, and avoid.

Homeless , Hobos and Street Folks are quite useful as Mentors as well.
Again, not known trainers, still the lessons on why they wear the clothes they do, and wearing the same clothes when spending time on the streets, in cardboard housing and getting a meal at a Mission or Church.

These folks can spot a CCW-er, a Cop, A Social Worker, Mean Street Folks, gangs and have a way they "scatter" when they smell trouble.
Some of our Body Guards and UC LEO types took lessons from these folks.

Reading people, places and things, "improvised" or "expedient" tools as often times one could not have a gun, or edged weapon or anything, evade, escape and other lessons.

Legitimate business has been conducted a long long time, before Air Travel, UPS, FedEX and other more modern business methods...and still the old ways are used.

Zero hours, I am nobody.

 

[brownie0486]

sm,

TFL illuminaughty I wonder if anyone understands the irony in that signature line, thats just priceless sir.

Brownie

 

[brownie0486]

Matt,

I see myself as a fairly well rounded instructor.

Having trained with you, I'd agree with that assessment. Hope you had a good holiday.

Brownie

 

[sm]

grampster , a member here on TFL and THR and good Internet Friend, dubbed me that...it stuck. *grin*

I have other nicknames , just Art's Grammaw prefers we not use those on Public Forum.

Re: Hours.

Larry Ashcraft, moderator here, has some "lesson" hours, these were watching his wife Sandy, chase me with a pan.
How to use a pan as a weapon, and how to evade, and "distraction" so others could sneak into the food spread I "was".

*grin*

 

[Sweatnbullets]

The decision on what to train for skills is prioritized by the criminals

Actually, it is prioritized by our knowledge of crimminal behavior. The crimminal can not set logical priorities for you....he has no ability to make decisions for you. He can only give you information so that you can make informed decisions based on your personal situation.

That is why my top three are mindset, knowledge of the use of force, and tactics.

The mind is the ultimate weapon!

You would be able to fight with a can of soup once you have your mind right. Everything else is just icing on the cake.

 

[brownie0486]

Actually, it is prioritized by our knowledge of crimminal behavior

And that behavior is to get as close as possible before engaging or making his intentions known, pulling a blade or having one already in his hand in an attempt to control your behaviour as soon as possible by threatening you with a "tool" of his choice.

I'm quite familiar with criminals bahaviour, having worked the streets in two major cities for 28 years and survived through awareness and physical skills. I don't need to read studies on that behaviour to understand what it is we potentially face on the streets daily.

Your knowledge of use of force better be more than mindset and having read about theirs, your physical skills had better be superior to theirs, as it's the physical plane that will get you killed here, not the cerebral.

He can only give you information so that you can make informed decisions based on your personal situation.

That information could very likely be an unannounced physical assault without preassault indicators, thats worst case scenario, and thats what you train for, the worst case scenario.

The decision on what to train for skills is prioritized by the criminals They carry knives tothe tune of about an 8 to 1 ratio, better have those H2H and unarmed against a knife skills prioritized in the right order.

You can't teach someone mindset, unlike what some believe. Oh sure, you can convince people mindset can be trained, they can delude themselves to think they have some "warrior" mindset and will prevail, but on the streets, when the pucker factor hits 10 in an instant and you've not experienced that type of system overload in the past, you stand a good chance of that mindset failing you. It happens too often to ignore it. There is no substitute for experience, and most will not get it unless they've experienced it first hand in real time, not in some training venue.

There are instructors out there convincing people they are making them warriors with a warrior spirit mentality. It plays well to the male ego, till they actually run into some hardcore street thug who doesn't play mindgames but actually fights in the arena of the street daily and understands how to take you as he does it regularly.

The mindset to prevail/survive [ the survival instinct ] is strong in humans, developed over a long time. Thats something built into us for the most part, it's the physical skills that keep you alive. Hell, you can have all the warrior mindset you want, without the physical skills to survive, you'll be lunch for some predator more often than not.

Brownie

 

[Sweatnbullets]

Then we are in total agreement. What's the argument about?

 

[1911 guy]

My point exactly.

Mr. Pincus, I'm not trying to pick on you, it's just that you word things concisely enough to make a useful counterpoint.

Quote:
The job of the instructor/program developer is to research those 8 and come up with the best for his student.

Precicely. I don't need to know every possible way to rack a slide. I need to know three reliable ways; two handed, right hand only, left hand only. I'm the end-user, not the R&D department. I want to go to a school where the information is presented as "this is what we believe works best" instead of "this is pretty good, as well as the eight other methods we taught you."

It's never a bad thing to learn more skills or variations, IF you have MASTERED the skills and fundamentals you will rely on when the chips are down. I've been "out of the mainstream" for a decade. I'm not going to delude myself that I'm not ten years older, twenty pounds heavier, a little slower and not nearly as ornery as I used to be. I'm more Low Speed, High Drag now. I want a workable set of skills that can be taught and maintained without going to a class every two weeks and costing hundreds of dollars every time. Three a year is my limit, they'd better count. Within the last few years I've found a school that seems to boil it down to basics and teach those basics well. For most of us, that's what we want and need right now.

 

[brownie0486]

Then we are in total agreement.

Not really.

That is why my top three are mindset, knowledge of the use of force, and tactics.

You can't teach someone mindset, unlike what some believe. Oh sure, you can convince people mindset can be trained, they can delude themselves to think they have some "warrior" mindset and will prevail, but on the streets, when the pucker factor hits 10 in an instant and you've not experienced that type of system overload in the past, you stand a good chance of that mindset failing you. It happens too often to ignore it.

The courses that I teach right now touch on the top nine

Mindset
Knowledge on the use of force
Tactic fundamentals
Handgun fundamentals
Physical fitness
Hand to hand fundamentals
Low Light fundamentals
Advanced Combat handgun
Advanced Low Light

Touching on a subject will be quite different than actually having spent enough time training in that discipline to impart serious skills to others.

what you decide to prioritize is a decision that nobody else is in the position to judge.

You are always judged by the knowledge you have personally sought over the years, the time, effort and funds allocated to be as proficient in any one the SD disciplines, and whether you are considered capable of then being able to impart a level of that knowledge to others [ when they are paying for it if you are a trainer ] that is worth taking.

If you touch on the subjects, thats a discussion among two or more people. When you train others in any of the disciplines, you should be able to quantify your own training as to what level of skill you possess, where you obtained the skills, how long you've trained in that particular discipline and whether that skills set is at a level worth receiving.

Brownie

 

[7677]

Without getting in the middle of the debate between Brownie and Pincus, I would not disregard time spent in the dojo so quickly. Not every dojo is created equal but the same goes for firearms instructor in general. There are some arts out there that do teach the necessary h2h/weapons skills.

There is great merit in becoming a well rounded student then instructor however in doing so you have to expose yourself to diverse background and above all...in all of this training the element of experience has be incorporated into what you teach.

 

[Rob Pincus]

I didn't think we were debating... ? Did I miss something?

1911,

I think you are right, we are in agreement here... my point was that a quality instructor MUST be an R&D department to get the best info to their student.

-RJP

 

[7677]

Rob,
I simply meant that I didn't want to get caught up in the comparing of resumes and experience with you and Brownie. I just want to tell Brownie that he over looked the value of certain "dojos" that might be teaching effective h2h techniques.

To be quite honest it isn't the classes people take that impresses me but the experiences they possess and the direction they have gone. Classes are theory and experience is a track record that the person applied these theories properly. Notice that I use a combination of the two, as any instructor worth their salt is a student first. However the students that become great instructors in their field successfully apply what they learned in their given field. For example, I have taken hostage negotiation classes but I'll never be as good as someone who negotiates with criminals on a regular basis.

I do agree that lists and resumes do not give a complete picture of a instructor. Just because you can shoot does not mean that you can teach. A instructor has to possess the proper abilities and mindset and be able to effective communicate and diagnose a variety of problems.

Besides...I'd hate to cause the server to fail after I take up bandwidth with list of my classes which only says I'm a good student and have been shown the material but says nothing about my ability to retain or apply it.

 

[boalex207]

Brownie, you're doing a heckuva job !


(Had to be said )

 

[brownie0486]

fjolnirsson; Biker,

Lets see if the server will take the photos of the neckwhips tonight.

boalex207,

Started this thread to get people to think about their present or future training, it's taken some twists and turns, but I've received quite a few pm's and emails from members that have thanked me for bringing the thought process to the forefront, thats worth the posts IMO. Too many out there are guncentric, some due to time and funds restrictions, others not so. How many times do we see people posting "look what followed me home" with pics of a new gun, who do have the resources to train to be "well rounded" and haven't considered to prioritized correctly what may be important to survive. Thanks for your thoughts.

7677,
I didn't think it was a resume post per se, but felt obligated to state where specifics like the blades and certain other skills came from. Like you, a resume would take up too much bandwidth and only prove how much time spent as a student in various specialized disciplines

Relative the dojo comment in the OP, I tried to head off those who would list hours in a martial studio, as I was looking for hours spent in very specific "courses" [ disciplines ] attended over the years. Certainly there are some great masters in some dojos, who impart valuable street skills, but then more often than not too many are more Mcdojo mentality, than true training centers worth attending.

Edited to add: No luck on the pics of the neckwhips guys, server is still not putting them up for us.

Brownie