Are You Comfortable Carrying Ball .45 ACP?
- Thread starter StrikeEagle
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Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
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- 4,925
Um, there is only one hole. It is just a matter of how deep it is. Saying ball makes two holes instead of one is, well, stupid.
Carry hardball in a .45? Heck yes. As far as over penetrating, any rd from a .357 magnum, 9MM, .38Sp will penetrate walls in a home. In fact, the 9MM was one of the rounds that sometimes penetrated early vests. Two in the chest, one in the head? I would rather explain 3 in the chest to a police officer!! 
Ken Rainey
Member
I don't have a problem using hardball (I carry them in my spare mag) but I start off with Winchester Ranger T 230gr in the pistol, if I run the pistol dry or have a "Murphy Moment", then the hardball mag comes out. If I didn't have the Ranger ammo or any reliable feeding hollowpoint ammo I'd have no problem at all using the hardball for the "in gun" load. As a matter of fact, I've been considering the use of a semi-wadcutter bullet, my Kimber eats my lead 200 grainers without a hitch....any comments on known effectiveness?
bakert, The "one in the head" (given the opportunity/ability to do so) is for a failure of the "two in the chest" to produce immediate incapacitation.
bakert, The "one in the head" (given the opportunity/ability to do so) is for a failure of the "two in the chest" to produce immediate incapacitation.
Jeff Timm
Member
Both my .45s are throated for 200 gr. Speer / CCI rounds.
I have yet to find a bullet they will not feed, including 185 gr. wadcutters.
Geoff
Who hasn't even seen any 185 gr. Target Wadcutters lately.
I have yet to find a bullet they will not feed, including 185 gr. wadcutters.
Geoff
Who hasn't even seen any 185 gr. Target Wadcutters lately.
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
Proly, the 230 grain "hard ball" .45 ACP has killed more men than most of us
care too count. And BTW, if its good enough for fight'in men and
women of the U.S. military, then its good enough for me.
care too count.
And BTW, if its good enough for fight'in men andwomen of the U.S. military, then its good enough for me.
Fatelvis
Member
I prefer 45 ball.
1) It is utterly reliable in any pistol
2) It`s already a diameter that other calibers "try" to meet, after expansion
3) I like it`s ability to penetrate like a demon, (car doors, winshields, doors, etc.). I try to be aware of what`s beyond the target/threat, and react accordingly.
4) It`s cheap
Im sure #3 will be scrutinized by someone, in a later posting!
1) It is utterly reliable in any pistol
2) It`s already a diameter that other calibers "try" to meet, after expansion
3) I like it`s ability to penetrate like a demon, (car doors, winshields, doors, etc.). I try to be aware of what`s beyond the target/threat, and react accordingly.
4) It`s cheap
Im sure #3 will be scrutinized by someone, in a later posting!
StrikeEagle
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- Jul 8, 2004
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- 709
These are the *exact same* reasons that I started out with .45 Ball 30+ years ago. It doesn't need a trick round to do a job of work. Of course back then, high performance ammo wasn't NEARLY what it is today...
There was SuperVel which terrified me... and there was Remington which fed great but didn't expand one bit.
StrikeEagle
geekWithA.45
Moderator Emeritus
I don't feel underarmed with .45 hardball.
It's what I keep in the spare mag.
Sure, my carry gun's loaded to the hilt with 230 grain cor-bons.
Yes, I've run a few boxes of that through without a hitch, and yes, I've individually checked each of my carry rounds in the chamber.
But I've also put 14,000+ rounds of hardball through that gun, with astronomically few problems.
If I need mag # 2, things have gotten desparate indeed, and I want to shift from 99.999999% certainty of bang to 99.99999999999999999999999999% certainty of bang.
It's what I keep in the spare mag.
Sure, my carry gun's loaded to the hilt with 230 grain cor-bons.
Yes, I've run a few boxes of that through without a hitch, and yes, I've individually checked each of my carry rounds in the chamber.
But I've also put 14,000+ rounds of hardball through that gun, with astronomically few problems.
If I need mag # 2, things have gotten desparate indeed, and I want to shift from 99.999999% certainty of bang to 99.99999999999999999999999999% certainty of bang.
Aguila Blanca
Member
I may have OD'd on stupid pills this morning, but I fail to follow the logic of this approach. Doesn't matter how many types of cartridge you load up with, if ONE of them is unreliable, the gun's gonna stop right there. If that's the one on top, you're stopped before you got started.
Well, okay. You probably have one in the pipe, so maybe you just have a single shot self-defense pistol in .45 ACP.
Aim well, Grasshopper.
Aguila Blanca
Member
I'm not sure but what a lot of military people wouldn't prefer to be using hollow points, but military ammo is required to be FMJ (ball) by the Hague Accords. So our military doesn't use it by choice.
After a lifetime of doing so the Old Fuff carries hardball much of the time. He hasn't messed with his guns by adding useless and counterproductive gewgaws, and hardball feeds all of the time. ( I know, it's a foolish thought, but hardball is what the gun was designed to feed, and its reputation during earlier times for absolute reliability was based on guns shooting ball ammunition). It will also penetrate when penetration is needed. Over-penetration? In the Arizona desert country??? No, I don't worry about it. 
Of course some folks are worried about something called "stopping power" ? or lack of same. This would seem to be a recent concern. I started shooting .45's when I was a kid back during the middle-latter 1940's and nobody complained about the .45's stopping power until the late 1980's or so. Anyway I pay far more attention to bullet placement that what the size or shape of it is. The first rule is, and will always be ...
Hit the target !!!
Of course some folks are worried about something called "stopping power" ? or lack of same. This would seem to be a recent concern. I started shooting .45's when I was a kid back during the middle-latter 1940's and nobody complained about the .45's stopping power until the late 1980's or so. Anyway I pay far more attention to bullet placement that what the size or shape of it is. The first rule is, and will always be ...
Hit the target !!!
walking arsenal
Member
wow, I think i just read the word "stupid" in two or three different posts.
What are we, six?
What are we, six?
Mossyrock
Member
Until they prove themselves uber reliable, my 1911s get fed hardball. After that, 230 gr Gold Dots. My spare mag is always hardball. Why? If I empty a mag of Gold Dots at someone and they are still shooting at me, chances are they are behind cover. If they are, I want something that will penetrate. Seems reasonable to me. Besides, if my sidearm jams and I dump the mag, clear it, and do a malfunction drill, why the hell would I reintroduce the possible cause of the jam?!? My primary choice is NOT hardball. But, it will do in a pinch.
Hypnogator
Member
Well said, Black Majik!
I carry 230-gr Hydra-Shoks, because I know they'll function just as reliably in my Taurus as hardball.
I wouldn't hesitate to carry hardball if that's all I could get ahold of, but the extra velocity and expansion potential of the Hydra-Shoks make them a much more effective round, IMHO. I've seen posters claim they carry ball ammo because they can't depend on JHPs to expand. But an unexpanded JHP is just as effective, if not a little more so (due to bullet shape) than hardball.
I've had my say!
Headless Thompson Gunner
Member
If .45 ball can't get the job done, I doubt even the best JHP would make any difference.
Keep a 12 guage handy if you're really concerned about your pistol not being enough.
Keep a 12 guage handy if you're really concerned about your pistol not being enough.
Johnny Guest
Moderator In Memoriam
Fatelvis wrote four good reasons for using ball, back up in post #59. I went to .45 JHP when my agency began requiring, and furnishing, it. This had to do with some people harping on the possibility of over penetration. I believe ball had a somewhat greater tendency to ricochet off pavement than JHP, which MAY deform and not bounce so far.
The issue 230 Gold Dot fed well in my primary sidearm, a Colt Commander, and in my Government Model, and I was happy. Now retired, I'm back to buying my own carry ammo, so I don't worry about it one way or another. I make a point of loading factory HP bullets into my .38s and 9mms, though.
Best,
Johnny
The issue 230 Gold Dot fed well in my primary sidearm, a Colt Commander, and in my Government Model, and I was happy. Now retired, I'm back to buying my own carry ammo, so I don't worry about it one way or another. I make a point of loading factory HP bullets into my .38s and 9mms, though.
Best,
Johnny
The science of wound ballistics is fascinating, and I've spent more than 20 years studying it. The bullets today are better than they've ever been. .45 ball's reputation is a little overrated, much of it based on folklore. As has been said here before, .45 ball's ability to penetrate, combined with it's diameter, are why it's a better choice than the smaller FMJ rounds. Good hollow point designs offer advantages such as, larger wound channel, less over penetration, and a better cutting effect, which will cause more bleeding.
What you don't want, is one of the whiz bang, hyper velocity, lightweight, frangible bullets the snake oil salesman have been pushing since the 60's, and continue to push today.
Interesting though, that the late Gene Wolberg, IMHO, the finest wound ballistics expert of the late 20th century, used words almost identical to Old Fuff's.
Old Fuff said:
BTW, it was five years ago this last weekend that Gene Wolberg died. Gene did much of the work for the more well known wound ballistics experts, but never did the self promotion work to make himself famous. He was a quiet genius, that we all owe a debt of gratitude to. I hope where he's at, he has a heck of a range, and lots of weird calibers to work up loads for.
What you don't want, is one of the whiz bang, hyper velocity, lightweight, frangible bullets the snake oil salesman have been pushing since the 60's, and continue to push today.
Interesting though, that the late Gene Wolberg, IMHO, the finest wound ballistics expert of the late 20th century, used words almost identical to Old Fuff's.
Old Fuff said:
BTW, it was five years ago this last weekend that Gene Wolberg died. Gene did much of the work for the more well known wound ballistics experts, but never did the self promotion work to make himself famous. He was a quiet genius, that we all owe a debt of gratitude to. I hope where he's at, he has a heck of a range, and lots of weird calibers to work up loads for.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Ball Folklore
Elmer said:
>.45 ball's reputation is a little overrated, much of it based on folklore.<
******************
That's a fact...but I don't think it was as much folklore as it was the conditions that it was used under 90% of the time.
For the most part .45 ACP ball has been used mostly in the military arena against exhausted, possibly half-starved infantrymen who weren't hyped up on drugs and who haven't spent a good part of their adult lives pumping iron
in the prison exercise yard. This isn't to suggest that .45 hardball should be
UNDER rated either. I've seen firsthand the immediate results of close-range wounds from ball, and the resulting wounds are most assuredly nasty affairs,
and yes...one well-placed round will do the trick in most cases...especially if it hits bone. Remember too, that for every round of ball that fired from a pistol, a thousand were fired from a submachinegun at close range...which likely resulted in a good number of multiple hits.
Cooper rates ball at 95% one-shot effectiveness...and that's probably true
when used against weary foot soldiers, and probably pretty close to that
against an average man who isn't pumped on drugs or muscled up on steroids
and barbells. The stronger and the better conditioned the adversary is...the
less likelihood of any round producing instant incapacitation, and RN ball will fall to maybe 50 or 60% against some people. This is why we don't buy into
the "One-Shot Stop" theory, or buy into the "Ultimate Manstopper" hype.
Truthfully, any pistol caliber is a pretty wimpy thing to rely on to stop a serious and determined antagonist...so we shoot until he's either down...
or until we're out of ammo...or hopefully stun him badly enough to give us time to unass the AO. This idea of executing tactical reloads while engaging in a running gunfight and trying to gain "fire superiority" while you maneuver to "close with the enemy" can easily get you killed...and even if you survive, you may then be subject to criminal action, since the very action of movin' in and takin' out the bad guys turns YOU into the aggressor. These are situations better met by military units and SWAT/SET teams...not the private citizen trying to come out on top of a deadly threat.
The pistol's role is to meet an unexpected emergency, and its main advantage is that it's always with you if you need it...not because it's the
best tool for the job. Your mission is to survive the attack and go home...
not to be a hero. The best way to do that is to hit your attacker two or three times and get the hell out if at all possible. In that, hardball will probably serve you well.
Makes sense to me anyway...
Elmer said:
>.45 ball's reputation is a little overrated, much of it based on folklore.<
******************
That's a fact...but I don't think it was as much folklore as it was the conditions that it was used under 90% of the time.
For the most part .45 ACP ball has been used mostly in the military arena against exhausted, possibly half-starved infantrymen who weren't hyped up on drugs and who haven't spent a good part of their adult lives pumping iron
in the prison exercise yard. This isn't to suggest that .45 hardball should be
UNDER rated either. I've seen firsthand the immediate results of close-range wounds from ball, and the resulting wounds are most assuredly nasty affairs,
and yes...one well-placed round will do the trick in most cases...especially if it hits bone. Remember too, that for every round of ball that fired from a pistol, a thousand were fired from a submachinegun at close range...which likely resulted in a good number of multiple hits.
Cooper rates ball at 95% one-shot effectiveness...and that's probably true
when used against weary foot soldiers, and probably pretty close to that
against an average man who isn't pumped on drugs or muscled up on steroids
and barbells. The stronger and the better conditioned the adversary is...the
less likelihood of any round producing instant incapacitation, and RN ball will fall to maybe 50 or 60% against some people. This is why we don't buy into
the "One-Shot Stop" theory, or buy into the "Ultimate Manstopper" hype.
Truthfully, any pistol caliber is a pretty wimpy thing to rely on to stop a serious and determined antagonist...so we shoot until he's either down...
or until we're out of ammo...or hopefully stun him badly enough to give us time to unass the AO. This idea of executing tactical reloads while engaging in a running gunfight and trying to gain "fire superiority" while you maneuver to "close with the enemy" can easily get you killed...and even if you survive, you may then be subject to criminal action, since the very action of movin' in and takin' out the bad guys turns YOU into the aggressor. These are situations better met by military units and SWAT/SET teams...not the private citizen trying to come out on top of a deadly threat.
The pistol's role is to meet an unexpected emergency, and its main advantage is that it's always with you if you need it...not because it's the
best tool for the job. Your mission is to survive the attack and go home...
not to be a hero. The best way to do that is to hit your attacker two or three times and get the hell out if at all possible. In that, hardball will probably serve you well.
Makes sense to me anyway...
I agree.
Cooper's postulation, based on his limited experiences, along with anecdotal information from others. (Sorry, Col.)
"Stopping power", whatever that is, is dependent on many things, most of which are more important than caliber or bullet style.
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