Are You Comfortable Carrying Ball .45 ACP?

[Fatelvis]

Anecdotal? WoW.......Excuse me Elmer, I gotta get a dictionary!

 

[Elmer]

Anecdotal? WoW.......Excuse me Elmer, I gotta get a dictionary!

Main Entry: an·ec·dot·al
Pronunciation: "a-nik-'dO-t&l
Function: adjective
1 a : of, relating to, or consisting of anecdotes <an anecdotal biography> b : ANECDOTIC 2 <my anecdotal uncle>
2 : based on or consisting of reports or observations of usually unscientific observers <anecdotal evidence>
3 : of, relating to, or being the depiction of a scene suggesting a story <anecdotal painting> <anecdotal detail>
- an·ec·dot·al·ly /-t&l-E/ adverb

 

[Mulliga]

Another thing to consider is that the "one-shot effectiveness" (whatever the heck that means) is biased - .45s tend to come out of 1911s, and 1911s tend to be shot by experienced shooters (both CCWs and our military personnel). I'd wager there aren't too many .45 Auto pistols that cost less than $200, but there are plenty of .25s, .32s, .38s, and 9mms that do - and they are very popular with both criminals and with poor people who can't afford to practice much. If you are willing to spend more money on a gun, you're willing to shoot it more to gain proficiency.

 

[Elmer]

You know, Mulliga... you might have something there.....

 

[caz223]

I'm prolly not qualified to give my reasons, but I'll add my voice to the choir anyway, since you asked...
I don't carry ball.
I don't hunt with ball.
I don't load ball.
I don't shoot ball.

Over the last ten years or so, I've has occasion to use my .45 in animals, large and small, and examine the results.
Ball in .45 has left me unimpressed.

I've concluded that stopping power for me is a result of:
1. Disposition of target and ammo. Use enough gun?
People who argue shot placement as #1 would have to concede that they prolly shouldn't hunt wild boar with a .22 pistol.
This includes caliber, bullet design, and launching platform.I personally prefer 165 grain 10mm JHP in a commander length 1911 as an all purpose, but different strokes.... (No, I wouldn't hunt wild boar with it, either.)

2. Shot placement. Hit the target. This applies to your first shot, the one you may have had time for, prolly under less stress than the follow-up shots.
MAKE YOUR FIRST SHOT COUNT. You may not get another.

3. Proficiency. This has to do with your follow-up.
Attaining multiple hits on a moving target while moving.
Your first shot failed to stop immediately. What now?
Persevere. Finish what you started. Haven't had luck getting multiple hits on a moving target? Practice, practice, practice.

4. Learn.
OK, it's over. What did you do wrong? (Black and white, usually relates to instinct, presentation, engagement, etc.)
Is there room for improvement? (Shades of grey, usually the finer points of technique, or lack thereof.)
Learn anything?
Make the necessary changes, before you need them.

 

[Elmer]

I don't hunt with ball.

Good point. Few would recommend FMJ for even a small deer.

 

[jc2]

Of course, most of us don't ammo designed for anti-personnel use to hunt deer either (opting to use ammo actually designed for hunting instead).

 

[1911Tuner]

Qualified Arguments

Now that we've gone from the sublime to the ridiculous and taken the topic
from the question of what each of us is comfortable with to how good or bad
a given bullet style is...

No...I wouldn't *choose* to hunt wild boar with a .22 but if I was in the woods after squirrels, and a boar charged...and all I HAD was a .22...and I couldn't get up a tree, you betcha I'd use it. Many domestic pigs have fallen to a well-placed .22 short on the noggin. Shot placement wins over trick bullets every time. Even Cape Buffalo and Elephant have been stopped with
the 7X57 Mauser...a round that falls short of the .308's energy.

Neither would I *choose* to hunt Whitetail deer with a pistol stoked with hardball...but if I was on a hiking trail and a ruttin' buck took umbrage at my
being in his neck of the woods and came at me with his head down...and all I HAD was a Commander and ball...I'd take the shot(s) until one of us lost the fight. Shot placement wins again. Lack of same probably loses.

If I KNEW that I would have to fight for my life at high noon, I wouldn't choose ANY pistol, no matter which ammo I had on hand.

Ball ammo in any caliber isn't as effective as a good hollowpoint in the same caliber. No argument there...but well-placed ball is perfectly capable of shutting an attacker down and getting you home to wife and kids. Not defending ball because I happen to carry it sometimes...just stating a fact.

As for ball being "ultra reliable in any gun"...No, it's not. I've had more than a few pistols on my bench that would feed hollowpoints and choke on ball. I've seen some that wouldn't go through a whole magazineful of factory ball without a failure to feed and/or return to battery. Ball is no guarantor of reliability, just like no hollowpoint guarantees the end of the fight with one hit.

But...Back on topic. I'm as comfortable with ball in my carry gun as any hollowpoint because I know that in the final analysis, it's mostly up to me.
If I place the shot(s) well, I'll probably go home alive. If I shoot badly, I may not...no matter which round I'm using...unless the attacker is one of those
people who go into shock over a stubbed toe. In that case, even a .22 would do.

Cheers!

 

[Elmer]

Of course, most of us don't ammo designed for anti-personnel use to hunt deer either (opting to use ammo actually designed for hunting instead).

Heavy hollow point bullets are appropriate and recommended for deer.


caz223's point stands. If you heard that someone was using hardball for deer hunting, you'd think it was a poor choice. 170 lb deer, 170 lb man, not a lot of difference.

 

[Fatelvis]

As for ball being "ultra reliable in any gun"...No, it's not. I've had more than a few pistols on my bench that would feed hollowpoints and choke on ball.

Tuner, you`ve gotta admit ball feeds the most reliably in the vast majority of 45s. Ive had about 20-25 in my life so far, and ball was the default in most of them, if they had problems feeding H&G 68s or HPs. (Although, all but two of mine were straight from the box, with no tuning).

 

[jc2]

I got to thinking about it a little more, and while I don't hunt with .45 ACP, if I had a good shoot (during season, of course), I wouldn't hesitate to take a deer whether I had FMJ or Ranger T in the pistol. A good clean heart/lung shot with either would do the job. I beleive it was DiMaio who said he never saw fatal wound with a JHP that wouldn't be fatal with a FMJ.

 

[Elmer]

I beleive it was DiMaio who said he never saw fatal wound with a JHP that wouldn't be fatal with a FMJ.

Most of Dimaio's data would be from the 70's or early 80's. The HP's of the time were notorious for not expanding. The best of today's JHP's truly are different. Not only do they reliably expand, they tend to have sharp cutting edges, which will cause more damage through the entire wound channel. Spleen's, liver's, kidney's, etc., will be damaged by them, where an FMJ might slip past. We're not talking "magic bullets", but we are talking about significantly more damage potential.

We, (me...), are flogging a dead horse. .45 hardball is nothing to sneeze at. But today we have better choices.

 

[1911Tuner]

The Horse

Since it's been four pages ago...A gentle reminder may be in order.

StrikeEagle said and asked: (And I quote)

>>Hi, Friends!
I'm not trying to start another beef on 'stopping power'... just a question here:

Are you generally comfortable carrying 230 Ball Ammo in your .45 Auto?<<
**********************

Sorry Striker...Some topics just naturally tend to go off on a tangent. (Cool nic by the way)

 

[Rob96]

I generally carry Remington 230gr Golden Sabers, Winchester 230gr JHP, or Federal 230gr Hydrashoks. Ihave carried my stock Colt though, with hardball. Usually do this when I haven't made it to pick up hollowpoints. Do I feel undergunned with ball ammo? NO.

 

[Elmer]

>>Hi, Friends!
I'm not trying to start another beef on 'stopping power'... just a question here:

Are you generally comfortable carrying 230 Ball Ammo in your .45 Auto?<<
**********************

Sorry Striker...Some topics just naturally tend to go off on a tangent.

Short of Yes and No answers.... I don't think this topic went too far off topic.....

 

[natedog]

Arrows were used alot longer than bullets have been. They killed lots of people. Maybe we should go back to THEM.

No- rocks have been putting men in graves longer than both. We should pull a PLO and throw rocks. We could get Milt Sparks to make an IWB Summer Special rock holster.

 

[1911Tuner]

Quotes

Quote:

>>Short of Yes and No answers.... I don't think this topic went too far off topic<<
****************

Well...Ain't that kinda what he asked for when he started the thread?
Yes or No?



His quote:

>>Hi, Friends!
I'm not trying to start another beef on 'stopping power'... just a question here:
**********************

 

[Elmer]

>>Short of Yes and No answers.... I don't think this topic went too far off topic<<
****************

Well...Ain't that kinda what he asked for when he started the thread?
Yes or No?

Hmm......

Your posts, (#73 & #83), seemed longer than one word answers....

But perhaps I miscounted......

Or were you exempting yourself?

 

[1911Tuner]

Exemtions

Yep. They were long. Nope Not exempting...Just tryin' hard to get it back to the original question and topic in a diplomatic manner...but that seems to be hard to do at times. Maybe I just need to stop bein' so subtle...Tough for me to be a straighforward mod, but I'm startin' to see how it's necessary sometimes.

Cheers now...Hear?

 

[caz223]

I don't think this thread veered off course.
I think that if he wanted yes or no answers, he would have posted a poll.
No, he wanted to hear the reasoning, justification, and baggage of why.
I can't help it that he got mostly baggage, but realistically there's very few reasons to use ball anymore.
Most guns made today feed jhp just fine.
And like the man said, if they don't the gun's broke.
It comes down to why you chose the .45 in the first place.
If you chose the .45 over the nine because you want a bigger hole, and you shoot ball through your gun, well that just doesn't make sense to me. (And no, I didn't just start a 9mm vs. .45 debate!!!!)
CZ97s are downright notorious for not feeding anything but ball, and mine feeds jhp just fine.

 

[Elmer]

Maybe I just need to stop bein' so subtle...Tough for me to be a straighforward mod, but I'm startin' to see how it's necessary sometimes.

Straightforward usually works best.




Sorry Tuner.... Not sure where you're coming from on this one. I think this was a good thread, on point, with lots of good posts.... including yours.

 

[Dreamer]

To answer the question; I would rather carry JHP, but I would not feel uncomfortable with GI hardball. You shoot what you have, and shot placement is prime. A good solid hit with hardball is better than a miss with JHP.

 

[Browns Fan]

Quote:
"I'm prolly not qualified to give my reasons, but I'll add my voice to the choir anyway"

Yeah, me too!

At the risk of sounding like a cliche'...

They all fall to hardball!

 

[roo_ster]

Yep, I am comfortable with .45ACP Hardball

I don't sweat it if my .45s are stoked with hardball. I prefer my AMT .45ACP DAO Backup to be so stoked. That itty bitty .45 auto is not likely to impart enough velocity for a HP designed to work well out of a 5" bbl.

Before I confirmed that my SW1911 would reliably shoot Remmie 230gr Golden Sabres, I fed it Winny White Box FMJ felt just dandy.

 

[Edgeofthewoods]

1911 Tuner wrote:
Ball Folklore

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Elmer said:

>.45 ball's reputation is a little overrated, much of it based on folklore.<
******************

That's a fact...but I don't think it was as much folklore as it was the conditions that it was used under 90% of the time.

For the most part .45 ACP ball has been used mostly in the military arena against exhausted, possibly half-starved infantrymen who weren't hyped up on drugs and who haven't spent a good part of their adult lives pumping iron
in the prison exercise yard. This isn't to suggest that .45 hardball should be
UNDER rated either. I've seen firsthand the immediate results of close-range wounds from ball, and the resulting wounds are most assuredly nasty affairs,
and yes...one well-placed round will do the trick in most cases...especially if it hits bone. Remember too, that for every round of ball that fired from a pistol, a thousand were fired from a submachinegun at close range...which likely resulted in a good number of multiple hits.

Cooper rates ball at 95% one-shot effectiveness...and that's probably true
when used against weary foot soldiers, and probably pretty close to that
against an average man who isn't pumped on drugs or muscled up on steroids
and barbells. The stronger and the better conditioned the adversary is...the
less likelihood of any round producing instant incapacitation, and RN ball will fall to maybe 50 or 60% against some people. This is why we don't buy into
the "One-Shot Stop" theory, or buy into the "Ultimate Manstopper" hype.

Truthfully, any pistol caliber is a pretty wimpy thing to rely on to stop a serious and determined antagonist...so we shoot until he's either down...
or until we're out of ammo...or hopefully stun him badly enough to give us time to unass the AO. This idea of executing tactical reloads while engaging in a running gunfight and trying to gain "fire superiority" while you maneuver to "close with the enemy" can easily get you killed...and even if you survive, you may then be subject to criminal action, since the very action of movin' in and takin' out the bad guys turns YOU into the aggressor. These are situations better met by military units and SWAT/SET teams...not the private citizen trying to come out on top of a deadly threat.

The pistol's role is to meet an unexpected emergency, and its main advantage is that it's always with you if you need it...not because it's the
best tool for the job. Your mission is to survive the attack and go home...
not to be a hero. The best way to do that is to hit your attacker two or three times and get the hell out if at all possible. In that, hardball will probably serve you well.

I didn't want to cut 1911's excellent post. I am not the worlds formost expert on pistol fighting, but I do know a pistol is only a tool to allow you time to 1 Unass the AO 2, to make it home or 3, to get a long gun.The M.E .of most standard load handguns are not much more than a baseball thrown by a major league pitcher. Shutting down the pumping system or nervous system is what stops a target> The "HydroStatic shock factor, or Hydrokinetic shock" things are to a point true but they play a minor role. Penetration and tissue/bone damge are what counts. Not Hyper velocity fanged faced 7" wound channel bullets that are advertised in Handgunner. Now that said My springfield is loaded with 230 grain Speer Gold Dots. Why It functions as it should and 2 I don't belive in carring reloads for defense but I can buy Gold Dots to reload and still get the benifit of pracicing with what I carry.

Chuck

PS Thanks 1911 Tuner for such an excellent post