Arguing the nuclear strawman

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Zanad

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When arguing the some anti-gun people, the straw-man question of "should a private citizen be able to own nuclear weapons" sometimes comes up. Now I know this is a straw-man but it got me thinking. What are the laws on owning highly destructive devices like thermonuclear weapons or the like?(not like i want to own own or anything)

I ask this because it may be beneficial to the argument to actually know all the facts concerning these kind of things.

one more question I would also like to ask, is arguing about this subject the wrong way to go about convincing others of their rights by going to such extremes (it is a straw-man after all)?
 
I love it when they say, "What's next, a cannon or a tank?!" and then I reply, why yes - if I could afford one - it's perfectly legal to own cannons and tanks. :D

Sometimes I'll post links to tanks and cannons for sale...
 
If someone were to buy stock in a company owning a nuclear power plant they could own part of something very close to a nuclear weapon. I am not sure what these companies must do to be permitted to build and operate a nuclear plant, but in theory a private person should be able to do the same.
At the gun store I must fill out some forms to be permitted to buy a firearm. Kind of similar I think.
 
Point out that with certain liscensing all manner of explosives are legal. It's a bad argument, but there it is.

They'll come back with 'well then YOU need to be licensed.'
 
You're going completely the wrong direction with that one.

Any time someone tries to play the nuke card, they should be mocked for their inability to grasp the difference in scale between small arms and WMDs.

In essence, the best strategy is to make them look foolish.

"Well, gee, that argument's kind of out of left field. I'm just talking about current firearms policy as it exists today, and what might be effective in changing it. Even a five year old could tell the difference between a nuclear weapon and a rifle."
 
Arguing that there is a difference between rifles and nukes is a weak argument because it leaves you open to draw where you want the line to be and defend your choice.

The libertarian argument is that nukes shouldn't be banned, but anyone who wants to build one will have a hard time finding cooperating parties and will be shunned and excluded from society which is deterrent enough.

You can also add that nukes are in far more dangerous hands with governments than private parties since death by government is still the most prevalent form of murder in history.
 
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I agree with dman, I was once arguing this exact point, and if you acknowledge a difference between nukes and rifles, you have effectively said that there is a "gun control" line that is reasonable somewhere, and the only thing left to do from there is define where it is. In principle I would think that most of us disagree with that idea.

My statement was, "if you can afford a nuke, have at it".
 
Since WE, as the taxpayers, bought those nuclear weapons, you might say that we, indeed, DO own them

So when Clinton had those M14's cut up, we were destroying our own property? :uhoh:

We never owned them, the government simply spent our money and didn't even have the decency to give us the leftovers after they were done.
 
As far as I can tell from a quick google search (which'll get me on a list I'm sure:() you can own a nuke.

No law against it at the federal level, although you are required to register any nuclear device with the Nuclear Regulatory Commision. Some of the materials you would need for a military grade nuke are restricted/regulated but you can make fissionable material out of the iridium in your household smoke detector (you'd need a lot of luck, a lot of detectors and a very stringently controlled process to get enough material to build something large enough to compete with a much simpler conventional truck bomb however).

In addition, your liability for a private nuclear accident is capped $10 million. Should help keep your homeowner's insurance costs down if you choose to build your own breeder reactor.

Alaska, Deleware, South Dakota, DC and Puerto Rico have local laws against private atomic weapons so don't build it there.
 
Maybe an argument based on precision? Say you have a crowd of people. With a firearm, at some range and aim, you'd be able to kill just one person with any firearm. Can't say that about a nuclear bomb. Not a great argument, but then again, how could they refute that?
 
Maybe an argument based on precision? Say you have a crowd of people. With a firearm, at some range and aim, you'd be able to kill just one person with any firearm. Can't say that about a nuclear bomb. Not a great argument, but then again, how could they refute that?

Left yourself wide open: "So bans on belt-feds and grenade launchers are fine then?"

You'd be left with saying you trust your own skill with such weapons, which is a pointless pursuit.
 
Give It to Them Straight
by John Ross​
Author of Unintended Consequences
Source​

The biggest mistake we make is failing to take the moral high ground on our issue, and letting our
enemies define the terms.

THEY SAY: "We'd be better off if no one had guns."

WE SAY: "You can never succeed at that, criminals will always get guns." (FLAW: The implication here is that if you
COULD succeed, it would be a reasonable plan.)

WE SHOULD SAY: "So, you want to institute a system where the weak and elderly are at the mercy of the strong, the
lone are at the mercy of the gang. You want to give violent criminals a government guarantee that citizens are disarmed.
Sorry, that's unacceptable. Better that we should require every citizen to carry a gun."

***

THEY SAY: "Those assault rifles have no sporting purpose. You don't need a 30-round magazine for hunting deer --
they're only for killing people."

WE SAY: "I compete in DCM High Power with my AR-15. You need a large-capacity magazine for their course of fire.
My SKS is a fine deer rifle, and I've never done anything to give my government reason not to trust me, blah, blah, blah."
(FLAW: You have implicitly conceded that it is OK to ban any gun with no sporting use. And eventually they can replace
your sporting arms with arcade-game substitutes.)

WE SHOULD SAY: "Your claim that 'they're only for killing people' is imprecise. A gas chamber or electric chair is
designed for killing people, and these devices obviously serve different functions than guns. To be precise, a high capacity
military-type rifle or handgun is designed for CONFLICT. When I need to protect myself and my freedom, I want the most
reliable, most durable, highest capacity weapon possible. The only thing hunting and target shooting have to do with
freedom is that they're good practice."
[/size]
***

THEY SAY: "If we pass this CCW law, it will be like the Wild West, with shoot-outs all the time for fender-benders, in
bars, etc. We need to keep guns off the streets. If doing so saves just one life, it will be worth it."

WE SAY: "Studies have shown blah blah blah." (flaw: You have implied that if studies showed CCW laws equaled more
heat-of-passion shooting, CCW should be illegal.

WE SHOULD SAY: "Although no state has experienced what you are describing, that's not important. What is important
is our freedom. If saving lives is more important that anything else, why don't we throw out the Fifth amendment? We have
the technology to administer an annual truth serum session to the entire population. We'd catch the criminals and mistaken
arrest would be a thing of the past. How does that sound?"

***

THEY SAY: "I don't see what the big deal is about a five day waiting period."

WE SAY: "It doesn't do any good, criminals don't wait five days, it's a waste of resources blah blah blah." (FLAW: You
have implied that if waiting periods DID reduce crime, they would be a good idea.)

WHAT WE SHOULD SAY: "How about a 24-hour cooling-off period with a government review board before the news is
reported? Wouldn't that prevent lives from being ruined, e.g. Richard Jewell? And the fact that this law applies to people
who ALREADY own a handgun tells me that it's not about crime prevention, it's about harassment. Personally, I want to
live in a free society, not a 'safe' one with the government as chief nanny."

***

THEY SAY: "In 1776, citizens had muskets. No one ever envisioned these deadly AK-47s. I suppose you think we should
all have atomic bombs."

WE SAY: "Uh, well, uh . . ."

WE SHOULD SAY: "Actually, the Founders discussed this very issue - it's in the Federalist Papers. They wanted the
citizens to have the same guns as were the issue weapons of soldiers in a modern infantry. Soldiers in 1776 were each
issued muskets, but not the large field pieces with exploding shells. In 1996, soldiers are issued M16s, M249s, etc. but not
howitzers and atomic bombs. Furthermore, according to your logic, the laws governing freedom of the press are only valid
for newspapers whose presses are hand-operated and use fixed type. After all, no one in 1776 foresaw offset printing or
electricity, let alone TV and satellite transmission."

***

THEY SAY: "We require licenses on cars, but the powerful NRA screams bloody murder if anyone ever suggests licensing
these weapons of mass destruction."

WE SAY: Nothing, usually, and just sit there looking dumb.

WE SHOULD SAY:"You know, driving is a luxury, where firearms ownership is a right secured by the Constitution. But
let's put that aside for a moment. It's interesting you compared guns and vehicles. Here in the U.S. you can AT ANY AGE
go into any state and buy as many motorcycles, cars, or trucks of any size as you want, and you don't need to do anything if
you don't use them on public property. If you DO want to use them on public property, you can get a license at age 16. This
license is good in all 50 states. NO waiting periods, no background checks, nothing. If we treated guns like cars, a fourteenyear-
old could go into any state and legally buy handguns, machine guns, cannons, whatever, cash and carry, and shoot
them all with complete legality on private property. And at age 16 he could get a state license good anywhere in the country
to shoot these guns on public property."

***

Final comment, useful with most all arguments:

YOU SAY: "You know, I'm amazed at how little you care about your grandchildren. I would have thought they meant
more to you than anything."

THEY SAY:"Huh?"

YOU SAY: "Well, passing this proposal won't have a big immediate effect. I mean, in the next couple of years, neither Bill
Clinton nor Newt Gingrich is going to open up internment camps like Roosevelt did fifty-odd years ago. But think of your
worst nightmare of a political leader. Isn't it POSSIBLE that a person like that MIGHT be in control here some time in the
next 30, 40, or 50 years, with 51% of the Congress and 51% of the Senate behind him? If that does happen, do you
REALLY what your grandchildren to have been stripped of their final guarantee of freedom? And do you really want them
to have been stripped of it BY YOU?
 
Our founding fathers overthrew a government by force and established their own government. That's how America was born. Our founding fathers used weapons that were equal to that of the government that they overthrew. Our founding fathers then went on to write this:

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

So... let's add this up:

1. Founding fathers used force to overthrow a government.
2. They used weapons equal to the government to do so.
3. They wrote in the Declaration of Independence that it is the citizens' duty to overthrow tyrannical government.
4. The government possess nuclear weapons.
 
Sorry for the big post, this is the area specifically to your question.



THEY SAY: "In 1776, citizens had muskets. No one ever envisioned these deadly AK-47s. I suppose you think we should
all have atomic bombs."

WE SAY: "Uh, well, uh . . ."

WE SHOULD SAY: "Actually, the Founders discussed this very issue - it's in the Federalist Papers. They wanted the
citizens to have the same guns as were the issue weapons of soldiers in a modern infantry. Soldiers in 1776 were each
issued muskets, but not the large field pieces with exploding shells. In 1996, soldiers are issued M16s, M249s, etc. but not
howitzers and atomic bombs. Furthermore, according to your logic, the laws governing freedom of the press are only valid
for newspapers whose presses are hand-operated and use fixed type. After all, no one in 1776 foresaw offset printing or
electricity, let alone TV and satellite transmission."
 
All you do it point out the nature of the fallacy. It is a well established informal fallacy. If you address its content you are only given credence to its value. Simply explain that it is misrepresentation of your position and holds no true value.

In a discussion about gun rights and gun ownership bring up the concept "should a private citizen be able to own nuclear weapons" does not apply. Its a red herring.

You do not need to give any further explanation if you are having a debate/discussion using basic logic as the foundation for the discussion.

Most people do not like that type of answers but that is all that is really needed to discredit them.
 
A nuclear weapon is a "Destructive Device" as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845:
Destructive device
The term "destructive device" means (1) any explosive,
incendiary, or poison gas (A) bomb, (B) grenade, (C) rocket having
a propellent charge of more than four ounces, (D) missile having an
explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (E)
mine, or (F) similar device; (2) any type of weapon by whatever
name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel
a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the
barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch
in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary
finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting
purposes; and (3) any combination of parts either designed or
intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device
as defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a
destructive device may be readily assembled. The term "destructive
device" shall not include any device which is neither designed nor
redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally
designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a
signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device;
surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the
Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686
of title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which
the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an
antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for
sporting purposes.

See - http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-appendix-a.pdf
 
There's not very many people in this country who could afford to buy a nuclear weapon; those who do have that kind of money probably wouldn't be stopped by a law against mere possession if they really wanted to get their hands on a nuke.
 
"WE SHOULD SAY: "Actually, the Founders discussed this very issue - it's in the Federalist Papers. They wanted the citizens to have the same guns as were the issue weapons of soldiers in a modern infantry. Soldiers in 1776 were each issued muskets, but not the large field pieces with exploding shells."

Not poking anyone or anything, just wanted to throw in the idea that during the Revolution, some prominent and wealthy citizens had their own artillery pieces, and Benjamin Franklin even devised a program through the Continental Congress that allowed letters of marque to be given to the owners of armed private vessels, effectively creating a small privateer fleet. This was the heavy ordnance of the day, and private citizens could own it if they had enough money. The Founding Fathers would have known this. While the chief intent of the 2nd ammendment was to have the citizenry equipped with the same small arms as the military, there is precedent for private ownership of field peices etc...
 
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