Legal Ownership and Straw Purchases: SCOTUS

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My understanding of this case is that because the uncle gave defendant the money to purchase the specific firearm, the law says this was not purchased for the defendant, but for the uncle, and therein lies the difference. Had defendant purchased the firearm, and at a later date transferred the firearm to the uncle and been paid for it, no violation would have occurred.
 
Queen_of_Thunder said:
...And since you chose to even deny me a chance to put my argument before you and others for consideration I'll just pass. If you remember I said I could make a good case for a 5th Amendment case but you won't even consider allowing me to present it....
Who won't let you present your argument? I wish you would try.

But it does have to be a good legal argument that might convince a judge. As I discussed, I seriously doubt you could do it, but I'd be glad to see you try.

Queen_of_Thunder said:
...Of course I can make a good argument but dealing with Closed minds get us nowhere.
And what's this "Closed minds" nonsense? This isn't a junior college metaphysics class. We're talking about the law and what happens and would work in court.

So if you think you could make a good legal argument, supported by case law and applicable legal authority, which could conceivably convince a judge, by all means make it.
 
medalguy said:
...Had defendant purchased the firearm, and at a later date transferred the firearm to the uncle and been paid for it, no violation would have occurred.
Unless the defendant and uncle had made prior arrangement for the subsequent transfer to, and reimbursement by, the uncle.

In that case the legal analysis would run that the defendant advanced the funds on behalf of the uncle against the uncle's promise of reimbursement.
 
I don't think this was a setup case, more like "we've got to find something to charge you with."
http://www.scotusblog.com/2014/01/argument-preview-checking-up-on-gun-buyers/#more-204128
However, during the federal investigation of Abramski, FBI agents searched his former residence in Rocky Mount. That search turned up a receipt that his uncle, Angel Alvarez, had written to him for buying a Glock 19 handgun.

OH! OH! Hey, can we reopen a discussion about Bills of Sale now?!? :evil:
 
NavyLCDR, might not be a bad idea.

Man, I keep trying to tell people, if you aren't required to keep a bill of sale, consider not doing it.

We're required to keep records as SELLERS in Illinois (for 10 years; violation is a petty offense).

Buyers here are under NO obligation to keep records of face to face transactions.

Anyway .. back to the point.

This guy got railroaded for doing something that shouldn't have been against the law in the first place. I really hope it works out for him, and straightens it out for the rest of us, in the process. Long overdue, IMO.
 
I don't think this was a setup case, more like "we've got to find something to charge you with."
http://www.scotusblog.com/2014/01/argument-preview-checking-up-on-gun-buyers/#more-204128
Thanks Merl, I had mostly seen the legal arguments, but not the backstory. Just thought it might be because it seems like such a "clean" case without a lot of baggage.

Former LEO, did the transfer through an FFL to a relative, almost seems like a "best case scenario" for a favorable ruling.
 
The transcript of the oral arguments is fairly long. It can be found at http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/12-1493_2135.pdf

Heckifino how this will turn out, but it seems that the question about whether a person is the actual purchaser is not in the law. The ATF made it up and put it in the form. One of the questions that the Court agreed to settle is whether they exceeded their authority when they did that. If the ATF cannot compel an answer to a question as a condition of acquiring a firearm, then they cannot compel a truthful answer.

Further, the law specifies which entries on the form are material. Whether the person buying the gun is the "actual purchaser" is not among them.

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: I think it's very - it's very problematic to talk about the overriding purpose [which is what the government's attorney was arguing at this point] when you're dealing with a very sensitive compromise. There's, as far as I can tell, nothing in the language of the statute that talks about straw men or actual buyers or anything like that.

My guess is that the government's arguments will fail, but for a reason that hasn't been discussed here, yet. Abramski's attorney made hay with it during his rebuttal.

The government conceded that there were at least two plausible interpretations of the law covering the Abramski case. One interpretation was put out in an ATF circular to dealers in 1979, stating that what Abramski did was perfectly OK. In 1994, ATF reversed their interpretation and took the position that it was illegal. In the meantime, there was no change in the law.

If there are two plausible interpretations of a criminal law, the defendant is entitled to the one most in his favor. It is entirely unreasonable to expect a person to correctly resolve an issue that the Supreme Court might take up, and then split 5-4.

So I think Abramski walks, thanks to the rule of lenity.
 
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The government conceded that there were at least two plausible interpretations of the law covering the Abramski case. One was put out in an ATF circular to dealers in 1979, stating that what Abramski did was perfectly OK. In 1994, ATF reversed their position and took the position that it was illegal. In the meantime, there was no change in the law.

Fascinating. Nice find in the oral arguments.
 
Who won't let you present your argument? I wish you would try.

But it does have to be a good legal argument that might convince a judge. As I discussed, I seriously doubt you could do it, but I'd be glad to see you try.

And what's this "Closed minds" nonsense? This isn't a junior college metaphysics class. We're talking about the law and what happens and would work in court.

So if you think you could make a good legal argument, supported by case law and applicable legal authority, which could conceivably convince a judge, by all means make it.
Arkansas Paul said:
Quote:

What does the opinions of internet forum members have to do with how the 5th Amendment to the US Constitution is worded? It plainly states IN ANY CRIMINAL CASE. On what planet does that apply to filling out a form to purchase a firearm?






As you can see from the above post I was challenged and questioned before even setting one word down. This is simply an indication of an unwillingness to consider any other position other than their own.

This argument will take time for me to bring forth and frankly its not worth the effort if its not going to receive a fair hearing so to speak. As I said, I believe I could provide a good argument for a 5th Amendment case but getting jumped before I can put my case forward simply undermines my willingness to invest the time to do so.

Anyway I have contracts and ordinances to read plus a blog to launch and frankly I don't feel like investing the time now. Maybe later.
 
"The government conceded that there were at least two plausible interpretations of the law covering the Abramski case. One was put out in an ATF circular to dealers in 1979, stating that what Abramski did was perfectly OK. In 1994, ATF reversed their position and took the position that it was illegal. In the meantime, there was no change in the law."

Not only fascinating, this has been the case on a number of other ATF rulings. They've been so fickle, in fact, that their opinions can't truly be relied upon, and are seen by builders and manufacturers as a mere risk aversion measure, rather than a true "ruling" with attendant expectation of precedence, similarity, etc.

Offhand, PPSH parts kits, pistol to rifle conversions, broomhandle Mauser stocks, open bolt semi autos...the list goes on. I am surprised that something as central to "what the ATF does" in enforcement as straw purchases isn't more explicitly baked into the law. As aggressive as they are on that front, I figured they had explicit instruction to do so, when it's really just that they have been increasing these efforts for so long that they have created their own legal authority to do so in the interim. I imagine that fact surprised many ranking officials in the Bureau, too.

I would be...interesting, to see how the court addresses this whole scheme of agencies both writing and enforcing regulations without congressional input or consent. I imagine they will avoid the issue, in the interest of not raising too big a fuss from a single court ruling. As reliant as our governments have become on this mechanism, I have to wonder if they could even function without the ability to write (or bend) their own rules on a whim.

TCB
 
As you can see from the above post I was challenged and questioned before even setting one word down. This is simply an indication of an unwillingness to consider any other position other than their own.

It has nothing to do with my position. It has to do with what is protected under the 5th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, and all it protects is an accused criminal's right to not incriminate themselves. (That part of it anyway. It also covers grand jury, double jeopardy, due process and eminent domain, but none of those are in question here)
 
Queen_of_Thunder said:
...As you can see from the above post I was challenged and questioned before even setting one word down. This is simply an indication of an unwillingness to consider any other position other than their own...
Of course you were questioned and challenged. Why would you expect not to be? You stated a position on a matter of law, which position, based on my training and over thirty years experience as a lawyer, I have excellent reason to believe is specious. So of course I'm skeptical.

If you decide to opine, I will read your opinion. I will be a "tough sell", and it will be your burden to convince me. Are you up to the challenge? Maybe not.
 
Frank, she was referring to my comment as the one "challenging and questioning" her. To clarify, when I said "On what planet does that apply to filling out a form to purchase a firearm" I did not mean it as a personal attack. I was just stating that in no way can the amendment be construed to mean such a thing.

I do not have anything close to Frank's experience in the legal field. I have an Associates Degree in Paralegal Technology, worked in private law firms handling civil matters for 3 years and currently work for the prosecuting attorney's office. It will be another year before I complete my BA and can even apply to law school.
So while I in no way hold myself out to be as knowledgeable as Frank, I am not totally ignorant on the subject either when compared to the average citizen who gained all of their knowledge of the legal system from watching "Law and Order".

I'm not comparing anyone here to that mind you, that's just how the average joe is that doesn't work in the legal profession.
 
Arkansas Paul said:
Frank, she was referring to my comment as the one "challenging and questioning" her....
Well, she also quoted me. Maybe we were both "challenging and questioning."

But someone with an opinion can not expect not to be challenged and questioned. Nor should he or she expect an opinion not to be doubted or greeted with skepticism.

Indeed given our backgrounds we expect our opinions to be subject to challenge, resistance, questioning, and possible rejection. Which is why we learn to back up our opinions with research and data.
 
Our legal system is based upon the adversarial system. If you want to armchair quarterback a legal case in an internet forum where there's legal professionals lounging around, it's best to be prepared to back up your opinion with something substantive enough to get through a round or two of debate.

I know when I'm over my head (I am for sure on this particular forum), so I'm content to sit back and watch; asking the occasional question to something I don't understand.

Which I fortunately DO have such a question!

Earlier it was mentioned that the two individuals were in different states.

If the sale had happened exclusively within the same state, and the firearm wasn't moved from one state to another; would the federal government have jurisdiction? Or just the fact that the firearm itself has crossed state lines at *some* point give them jurisdiction?

(And if that is the case, what if the firearm was made IN the state, and sold in the state with a straw purchase of two non-prohibited persons? Still their jurisdiction? How? It's not interstate commerce...).
 
(And if that is the case, what if the firearm was made IN the state, and sold in the state with a straw purchase of two non-prohibited persons? Still their jurisdiction? How? It's not interstate commerce...).

giggle snort... sob...
 
Trent said:
...If the sale had happened exclusively within the same state, and the firearm wasn't moved from one state to another; would the federal government have jurisdiction? Or just the fact that the firearm itself has crossed state lines at *some* point give them jurisdiction?...
The short answer is yes.

The offense charged was the federal crime of making a false statement to a dealer licensed by the federal government. That's where the federal jurisdiction comes from. And that act was complete when the nephew bought the gun -- even before the gun was taken to another State to be transferred to his uncle (based on the prosecution's theory of the case as upheld by the Fourth Circuit).

So the nephew taking the gun to another State to transfer to his uncle doesn't really have anything to do with the underlying crime. That's another issue, and the fact that the gun was transported to another State for transfer means that under another federal law the transfer had to be done by an FFL. Had that transfer not been done by an FFL, it would have been a separate, additional federal crime.

Trent said:
...And if that is the case, what if the firearm was made IN the state, and sold in the state with a straw purchase of two non-prohibited persons? Still their jurisdiction? How? It's not interstate commerce...
If the gun had been purchased at an FFL, yes. Again, the crime is really, in effect, lying to a guy with a federal license to sell the gun.

If this involved entirely intrastate transactions and if they were private transactions (without the use of an FFL -- assume legal in that State), the federal government would not have jurisdiction because this particular federal crime can not be committed unless someone fills out a 4473.

Let's leave the "wholly made within a State" business off the table here. Since the Supreme Court declined to hear the Montana case, it can be a can of worms.
 
Again, the crime is really, in effect, lying to a guy with a federal license to sell the gun.

Seems to be the boiled down heart of the matter, good description. Also seems to be what SCOTUS will be ruling on: is it a "straw-purchase" if the only crime was lying on a form, even if the lying was not to "deceive regarding the lawfulness" of ownership as per congressional law.
 
Gaiudo said:
...Also seems to be what SCOTUS will be ruling on: is it a "straw-purchase" if the only crime was lying on a form,...
Way back when ATF started referring to this as a straw purchase, they really confused the matter. The garden variety understanding of a "straw" transaction involves the use of a straw man to hide something fishy about a deal or to do something that you couldn't do yourself. So when ATF decided, for some unknown reason, to apply the term to what is in effect just misrepresentation, it confused matters to the point that a lot of people did not understand the law.

What this then comes down to is the question of materiality -- does the incorrect information really matter? The Fifth Circuit said basically that it didn't matter if the the next transfer was legal and the transferee was not prohibited from possessing a gun. Other courts of appeal thought differently.

We'll have to see where SCOTUS comes out on the question.
 
Frank, thank you for your last statement. I pretty much stated what you called the 'garden variety' understanding of 'straw purchase'. Your comment clarified how it morphed into something far more general and threatening.
 
Queen_of_Thunder ....This argument will take time for me to bring forth and frankly its not worth the effort if its not going to receive a fair hearing so to speak.
Um yeah. "not worth the effort" is internet doublespeak for "I haven't a clue what I'm talking about, just realized it and need to go hide until this blows over".:rolleyes:


As I said, I believe I could provide a good argument for a 5th Amendment case but getting jumped before I can put my case forward simply undermines my willingness to invest the time to do so.
Do not confuse disagreement with "getting jumped on". No one called you names, insulted you or otherwise belittled you personally...........but many disagreed with your statement regarding the 5th.

Now, rather than present an argument you bail out with the lamest of reasons.


Anyway I have contracts and ordinances to read plus a blog to launch and frankly I don't feel like investing the time now. Maybe later.
A blog about the scarcity of .22 rimfire in West Texas? I can't wait.
 
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