Arizona Decides Trail Cameras Violate Fair Chase; Slap Hunters with Country’s First Full Cam Ban

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I’ll use trail cameras til the day I die. It’s as much of a hobby for me as actually hunting. I can’t say that I’ve killed very many deer because of a trail camera, but I enjoy looking at the photos and taking inventory of what’s running around on the land where I hunt. If you don’t want to use them, don’t, but for a group of people whom purport to support personal liberties, some of y’all sure take a hard anti-trail camera stance against your fellow hunters. I’ve heard the exact same arguments against the AR-15s. “I don’t need them and neither do you because I said so.” It’s a crap argument.
 
I’ll use trail cameras til the day I die. It’s as much of a hobby for me as actually hunting. I can’t say that I’ve killed very many deer because of a trail camera, but I enjoy looking at the photos and taking inventory of what’s running around on the land where I hunt.

If you change “very many” to “any”, you could still use them there.

Trail cameras used for general wildlife viewing, research, and/or home or camp security are not affected by this rulemaking.

page 10 section a of the rule.

https://azgfd-portal-wordpress-pant...Final-Rulemaking-Trail-Camera-Prohibition.pdf

Makes it kind of like a padlock as far as only keeping honest people out in their use for “taking game” but they didn’t eliminate there use completely.
 
If you change “very many” to “any”, you could still use them there.



page 10 section a of the rule.

https://azgfd-portal-wordpress-pant...Final-Rulemaking-Trail-Camera-Prohibition.pdf

Makes it kind of like a padlock as far as only keeping honest people out in their use for “taking game” but they didn’t eliminate there use completely.
Yeah, but I used the term “very many” because I have used cameras to pattern a few deer and I don’t have any issue with people using trail cameras to kill game. Some people have plenty of time to scout and plan hunts. Some folks only have a couple of weekends a year to devote to hunting and scouting. We are the most intelligent beings on earth. There is no such thing as fair chase. Use the tools available to you.
 
Where i hunt in newyork .Witch is my own small farm you sit in a tree stand when the sun comes up you just pick and shoot ? what difference does a trail cam make.On government land i can see cause with the control freaks that gravitate to these jobs/offices its just another way to make money with fines. If you do not want the game harvested do not give out the permits only give out so many tags each year.In my opinion any person that is reasonably proficient with a gun the animal does not stand a chance, if you can see it its dead. so who cares about a camera ,just more government overreach!
 
Where i hunt in newyork .Witch is my own small farm you sit in a tree stand when the sun comes up you just pick and shoot ? what difference does a trail cam make.On government land i can see cause with the control freaks that gravitate to these jobs/offices its just another way to make money with fines. If you do not want the game harvested do not give out the permits only give out so many tags each year.In my opinion any person that is reasonably proficient with a gun the animal does not stand a chance, if you can see it its dead. so who cares about a camera ,just more government overreach!
Most states out West DO limit the number of tags available; many use a lottery system where maybe you get a tag that year, and maybe you don't. When I lived out West and I drew a tag, it then became scouting time on the weekends before the season; meaning walking, riding, glassing, spotting stalking and making notes - in other words it was work and required a lot of time and resources if I was going to be successful in filling that tag that year.
 
Remember that 'fair chase' is absolutely arbitrarily defined.

Yep, and that definition can and does change over the years. Growing up as a kid, baiting/salt licks for deer were poacher's tools and against the law here. Now until CWD came around it became the norm and many new hunters have never hunted without it. With the banning of baiting in CWD counties many hunters are now lost. Growing up, the herd numbers were never what they are now either, so rules were stricter in order to keep opportunities open to more hunters. More hunters, more license fees. Now adays, deer in Ag areas have become a nuisance animal and folks can't/won't shoot enough of them. Lots of opportunities for those with access, so lots of tags and a loosening of regs on how one can legally take them.

I’ll use trail cameras til the day I die.

...and as long as it is legal, I for one, support your right to.

Yeah, but I used the term “very many” because I have used cameras to pattern a few deer and I don’t have any issue with people using trail cameras to kill game. Some people have plenty of time to scout and plan hunts. Some folks only have a couple of weekends a year to devote to hunting and scouting. We are the most intelligent beings on earth. There is no such thing as fair chase. Use the tools available to you.

....again, it comes down to local ethics(dictated by the majority of area hunters for the most part), and availability of game. Those folks with little or no time to scout have always been around. Kinda why they were known as "weekend warriors". Their success is more based on luck and chance. Always has been, always will be. Like anything else in life, if you want to be successful, you have to put in your time. I remeber when the latest technology for scouting was a stop watch attached to a string you strung across a game trail. You didn't know what tripped the string, but you did kinda know when. You still had to go out and physically monitor/reset it. You figured out which direction the animal(or human) was walking by which way the string was laying. Similar to reading broken brush/grass. There is technology out there to shoot deer from planes/helicopters. Should we use them too since we are so intelligent? How about remote fired guns using those cellular trail cams as aiming tools? That technology is there too. Come does to ethics and what one considered "sporting". My grandpa taught me you never shot a duck on the water, nor did you ever ground swat a grouse/pheasant or quail. That was back in the day when we hunted more to eat than for sport. Still go by his philosophy today. What others do, I care less, as long as it's within the law.

....as I said before, I have no dog in this fight. Never have hunted Arizona, and odds are, I probably never will. If Wisco goes that way, I will respect the law and abide by it, even tho, like with the use of cell phones, enforcement is almost impossible. But that's what regs are generally aimed at. The majority of law abiding folks. The definition of wthics we give to students in our Hunter Safety classes is, "Doing the right thing, when no one else is around".

If you don’t want to use them, don’t, but for a group of people whom purport to support personal liberties, some of y’all sure take a hard anti-trail camera stance against your fellow hunters.

I see no "hard" stance taken by anyone here, just a slight difference of ethics. Your stance too, could be taken as "hard" against your fellow hunters. What I have seen by most here, is respect given to those who have a slight difference of opinion/ethics. What I don't see for the most part, and hope to never see, is the condoning of breaking the law.
 
Where i hunt in newyork .Witch is my own small farm you sit in a tree stand when the sun comes up you just pick and shoot ? what difference does a trail cam make.On government land i can see cause with the control freaks….

A real control freak isn’t happy just telling you what to do if it would have effect on them, they want to force you to do what they feel is right everywhere all the time, no matter what.
 
Where to draw the line? Trail cams? Rifle scopes? Hand loaded ammo? ATV? Ground blinds? Tree stands? Special arrow heads? This ridiculous ban is government overreach cooked up in the absence of creative conservation solutions. Their's is a tough job, but banning harmless cameras is not an answer.
 
Sounds like overreach to me. Trail cameras on my back property let me know what times of the year I have a coyote problem. When I have a hog problem. And when a family of turkeys likes to use my back yard as a pass through to somewhere else. I rarely hunt but knowing what happens on my property is my business. I am glad I don't live in Arizona.
 
Sounds like overreach to me. Trail cameras on my back property let me know what times of the year I have a coyote problem. When I have a hog problem. And when a family of turkeys likes to use my back yard as a pass through to somewhere else. I rarely hunt but knowing what happens on my property is my business. I am glad I don't live in Arizona.
They also let you know when you have a trespassing problem. Ling a "ring" doorbell camera, except for the woods.
 
Also, Arizona is in a huge drought and resources are concentrating around water holes (as were game cameras) basically resulting in hunters not only knowing when and what game was showing up, but routes of ingress and egress...basically gathering lots of knowledge needed for successful hunting without actually doing it while hunting...while not even being present. The result is a whole lot less spot and stalk and a whole lot more plot and snipe.
It would seem to me that in this case, the most valuable piece of knowledge to have... would be the location of the watering hole. Will it be illegal to hunt in the vicinity of a water source next?
 
my predecessors didn't need cameras, 600 yard shots, pelletized "powder", and such,
Pelletized powder can be seen as a safety feature in ML rifles to prevent overcharging. At the same time, I know BP hunters who swear by loose powder and their measure device for consistency and accuracy- so which one is less sporting? While some people may consider a 600 yard shot "cheating", I think many would consider an accurate 600 yard shot to be "challenging", and something to be accomplished after a considerable amount of practice and collecting of data. Depending on location and terrain, shots at "longer than normal" ranges may well be the norm. At what range does it become "cheating"? 100 yards? Why not 99? Why not "push the envelope" to 101? At the same time, an animal shot at "very close range" (insert yardage here) could be seen as cheating, based on the opinion that "it was so close it didn't have a chance", or "no challenge at all at such a close distance" or something along those lines. I suppose any opinion is "valid" on these matters, but I think it is worthwhile to consider all angles, if this type of topic really concerns you. As homo sapiens, game animals in modern days are grossly overmatched by our intellect, ability to reason and share information by numerous means, abilities to transport ourselves in a short period of time almost anywhere in the world, opposable thumbs, and technology in general. Maybe sharing tips on the internet is unsporting. This probably started millions of years ago, when someone figured out a way to sharpen a stick and launch it, and had the idea to wait in a tree for a critter to walk by, after figuring out when, where, and why said critter would normally be in the area. Then, after it worked, he told his friends what he did around the fire while eating the animal at the cave entrance (assuming they had mastered the art of making fire).
 
It's rumored the real reason for the ban was because the government did not want people recording videos of illegal aliens crossing.


Not sure though.

I'm surprised this didn't come up earlier in the thread and more frequently. With the amount of public land vs. private land, the fact that most hunting in Arizona seems to be done around water holes, a recent loosening of boarder enforcement, the trend of land owners using cameras to watch for trespassers and/or predators, a sudden crack down on cameras seems nonsensical if the issue is really about game management.
 
It would seem to me that in this case, the most valuable piece of knowledge to have... would be the location of the watering hole. Will it be illegal to hunt in the vicinity of a water source next?

The watering hole would be key information during a drought, no doubt. Everything is coming to it, so why bother stacking game cameras around it? D'uh!

Will it be illegal to hunt in the vicinity of water sources next? Well, right now it sounds like concentrating all the animals at water holes would make for something of a dangerous situation for the hunters (too many in a confined area all trying to shoot whatever comes in). After all, if you know animals are going to the water hole because water is in short supply, who isn't going to hunt the water hole?

I am not saying what AZ is doing is right or wrong, but I read enough hunter incident reports to not believe the hunters are going to act fully professional and careful as water criticality increases for game animals.
 
I’ve never really understood why most game laws other than limits exist, a few exceptions like the lead ban for waterfowl are reasonable.

I understand conservation, but why does it matter what time of day the game gets harvested? Why does scope or open sights matter? Why does it matter if saw it in a camera a week ago? Why does it matter if have 3 shots in my shotgun or 5? Of if my gun has a suppressor on it? And on, and on.

it seems like a bunch of bull poop to me.

At the end of the day I don’t guess it matters, I’m no criminal so I even obey stupid laws and they didn’t ask about me. It’s just hard to take them seriously when they do stuff like this.
 
They also let you know when you have a trespassing problem. Ling a "ring" doorbell camera, except for the woods.

I have regular cameras for that. Ones that alert my phone when they pick up something. I wouldn't use regular game cameras as security cameras unless they were cellular connected. Sometimes I don't check the card as often as I should. My game cameras pick up the neighbor kids that ride ATVs and dirt bikes on a path through the properties, but other than that everything on film has 4 legs.

I’ve never really understood why most game laws other than limits exist, a few exceptions like the lead ban for waterfowl are reasonable.
I can reasonably understand some caliber laws for hunting. I wouldn't want to try hunting white tail deer with a 22LR. Skill wise I probably can but legally not. Being above a certain caliber or velocity ensures more humane kills.
 
Well . . . I just finished reading the proposed change and really don't see why so many have an issue with it. How much of an advantage do hunters need? We have the firearms, optics, ammunition, range finders and ATVs to make the hunts easier and more successful.

Now we have cameras that can tell us when (ballpark) game will be passing on their merry way. I can see people that stand to profit from hunts being opposed to this proposal but not non-guided hunters.

I am not opposed to hunting and did in my younger years. I have a lot of respect for hunters that disappear into the hinterlands for days on end in search for game. Or the hunters that walk and work a woods hoping to kick up a bunny or two. To me that's hunting. Knowing, with high likelihood, where a critter is going to be isn't hunting but waiting for a shot.

I do know cameras have been used for many years but apparently it is to the point of overkill. Pun intended.

Just my opinion with regard to trail cameras.
 
How much of an advantage do hunters need?

Again goes back to question why are you hunting. I know people, one guy in particular, that loves deer sausage but he’s not really a hunter. The only reason he ever hunts is to get a freezer full of deer sausage.

kind of like me and peas, I plant peas every couple years because theirs nothing like home grown purple hull peas, but ANYTHING I could do to make getting them easier, I’d do it. Peas are work, and I’m not a fan of gardening like some people.

So far as I’m concerned, that guy could bait deer to his back yard where he’d shoot it out of his bathroom window, under a light, at night, with a suppressed gun after learning it was there from a game camera.

1 dead deer = 1 dead deer, the circumstances that lead up to that don’t really concern me much, again with a few exceptions.
 
I never really had an opinion on trail cameras either way but I think maybe I can see their point?
 
Sounds like overreach to me. Trail cameras on my back property let me know what times of the year I have a coyote problem. When I have a hog problem. And when a family of turkeys likes to use my back yard as a pass through to somewhere else. I rarely hunt but knowing what happens on my property is my business. I am glad I don't live in Arizona.

See post #35, there are a number of legal uses for them that remain. Enough in fact that the burden of proof could be hard to overcome for the State in trying to prosecute someone that even used one to aid in taking game.

As posted in #35, on page 19 of the linked document, they note it is legal to use one to monitor a live trap, like you would use for your hog problem. So these cameras an images would be completely legal as long as I they didn’t aid me in killing the deer in them.

558FCC45-FF95-4B2D-89EA-D51256676F52.jpeg C50ADE20-98BE-45FA-A8B3-ED48B832F3F9.jpeg

And that is just one example, they left more loopholes than that, per post mentioned above.
 
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