Arizona may adopt "Vermont Carry"

[NelsErik]

FYI - while listening to talk radio this morning in AZ they had a guy from the NRA talking about the bill... they support it. I will try to get the guys name next time it plays. I'm sure an article exists somewhere about it... I'll post it when I find it.

 

[LemmyCaution]

If anything, I was suggesting that all permitting should be abolished, out of a sense of moral decency.

I don't see how that would help anyone. I see nothing wrong with optional permitting on a shall issue basis alongside Vermont carry. It's there if people want it. It also allows reciprocity.

You don't see how it would help anyone not to be required to get a permit in order to keep and bear arms, like Vermonters? I'm not sure what to say to that.

Try looking at it from a Vermonter's perspective. Should Vermont adopt a permitting system for reciprocity purposes? To me, making permits optional looks a lot like the first step toward making them mandatory. No, thank you very much.

I'd rather keep Vermont as the example of how things should be, and hope that other states move toward that.

This is probably hard to get one's head around, if one lives in a state where permits seem a fact of life. As a native Vermonter, I pity your lack of freedom, but support any state's move in the right direction.

 

[Izzy77]

I'd rather keep Vermont as the example of how things should be, and hope that other states move toward that.

Amen to that.

 

[Gungnir]

Actually what Cosmoline was arguing is that YOUR state can't change what another state requires.

In AK we need no stinking concealed license, just like Vermont. Unlike Vermont however the state issues a reciprocity license so you can then go to other states who respect that license and concealed carry. It's a way around the concealed carry licenses other states require, rather than a first step to licensing, since AK used to require a CCW now doesn't, we're going the opposite direction, towards less restriction. Until all states do not require a concealed carry license it protects Alaskans who are visiting other states (where the license is respected) who want to carry.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Actually what Cosmoline was arguing is that YOUR state can't change what another state requires.

Possibly. I'm just not sure whom he's arguing that with. It certainly isn't me.

Exactly how many states does AK have reciprocity with?

Even if VT adopted a permit system, it likely wouldn't be recognized by MA and NY, our southern and western neighbors. That leaves NH and ME to the east; but if I want to carry there, I'll open carry, and still don't need a permit for either.

Actually, I can't think of any states I would have any interest in visiting that don't allow open carry.

 

[Gungnir]

Possibly. I'm just not sure whom he's arguing that with. It certainly isn't me.

Exactly how many states does AK have reciprocity with?

Even if VT adopted a permit system, it likely wouldn't be recognized by MA and NY, our southern and western neighbors. That leaves NH and ME to the east; but if I want to carry there, I'll open carry, and still don't need a permit for either.

Actually, I can't think of any states I would have any interest in visiting that don't allow open carry.

I didn't say arguing, I said argument his point if you will.

Currently (according to AK licensing)
1. Alabama
2. Arkansas
3. Arizona
4. Colorado
5. Delaware
6. Florida
7. Georgia
8. Idaho
9. Indiana
10. Kansas
11. Kentucky
12. Louisiana
13. Michigan
14. Minnesota
15. Mississippi
16. Missouri
17. Montana
18. Nebraska
19. Nevada
20. New Hampshire
21. New Mexico
22. North Carolina
23. North Dakota
24. Ohio
25. Oklahoma
26. Pennsylvania
27. South Carolina
28. South Dakota
29. Tennessee
30. Texas
31. Utah
32. Vermont
33. Virginia
34. West Virginia
35. Wyoming

Which covers pretty much all but the usual suspects.

 

[hirundo82]

Colorado seems to either be stagnating or slipping backward IMO.

That's because y'all need to ship about half the population of Denver back to California.

 

[the iron horse]

"Vermont does not offer firearms permits of any kind."


This I think is what they meant when writing the Second Amendment.
Why should we seek a permit from the government to bear arms.

I hope and pray this return to freedom idea spreads to other states.

 

[mboylan]

This will probably kill reciprocity with other states. They will probably eliminate AZ from their list because the CCW permit no longer exists.

 

[hirundo82]

As I read it, the proposed law simply decriminalizes carrying concealed without a permit; it leaves the permit application process intact if you want a permit for reciprocity. This is exactly what Alaska did, and it doesn't seem to have hurt their reciprocity any--see Gungnir's list.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I hope and pray this return to freedom idea spreads to other states.

Actually, it isn't a 'return to freedom' for us. VT's RKBA clause, as detailed in my sig below, has been in the constitution of the Republic of Vermont (we were an independent republic from 1775 to 1791) since 1775, long before the Bill of Rights was drafted and before the 13 colonies' Declaration of Independence.

 

[DBR]

There are some firearms issues in Vermont. No suppressors; a restriction from 1948 to prevent "deer jacking" and no loaded long guns in any type of vehicle including ATVs unless on your own property; again a game management issue. Vermont has historically had many subsistence hunters and a smaller but significant number of for profit poachers.

Although it hasn't happened to my knowledge, one can still be charged if carrying in the open with several misdemeanors if someone complains. Probably not convicted but a hassle non the less. Depends greatly on the town and circumstances.

The other thing I find odd is some of the dangerous/deadly weapon statues say it is illegal to carry "with the avowed purpose of harming another human being". I think this includes firearms. Maybe I am reading this too closely but isn't that the definition of a self defense weapon. Perhaps it only applies to someone with a vendetta.

In any case Vermont laws seem to have been drafted to address issues as they arose and they clearly leave much room for interpretation by the local prosecutor. Is that good? I guess it depends on what county you live in. Vermont is not homogeneous.

 

[esquare]

So, can someone briefly explain the legislative process in AZ and what and how long it will take to pass?

 

[LemmyCaution]

DBR-

You're right about suppressors. What do you say to trying to get that one repealed? I think from a health, safety and environmental standpoint a good argument can be made in favor of legalizing them.

Loaded long guns in vehicles I'm less concerned about. Like to see it gone, but see it as a big uphill battle for little payoff.

But as far as "with the avowed purpose of harming another human being" is concerned, an avowal is an explicitly stated intent, such as "I'm going to go air out that loudmouth gadfly schmuck, Lemmy Caution," not the much more hypothetical and abstract "I carry a gun in case I need to use it to defend myself against an aggressor."

 

[DBR]

Thanks for the clarification. The problem I have with trying to get the suppressor law changed is it opens the whole gun issue to debate. Given the excessive legislative influence of the most liberal parts of Vermont I have been advised to "let sleeping dogs lie".

Several towns tried to put restrictions on concealed carry a few years ago and it took the State Supreme Court to get the laws overturned. The good thing is IIRC those laws were overturned on constitutional grounds, not preemption.