Vermont Laws - new ones passed legislature, Gov. ?

[GEM]

MONTPELIER, Vt. – The Vermont Legislature on late last week passed a bill that requires a 72-hour waiting period for the purchase of guns and includes other provisions aimed at reducing suicides and community violence.

The Vermont House concurred with a Senate amendment by a vote of 106 to 34. But Republican Gov. Phil Scott "has significant concerns about the constitutionality of the waiting period provision," his spokesman Jason Maulucci said Friday.

The legislation also creates a crime of negligent firearms storage and expands the state's extreme risk protection orders so that a state's attorney, the attorney general's office or a family or household member may ask a court to prohibit a person from purchasing, possessing or receiving a dangerous weapon.

Supporters say it's time to take action against gun violence and the rate of suicide in Vermont.

– Associated Press

Remember when VT, was supposedly gun heaven? About the actual laws - it's an empirical question if they are constitutional (that depends on what a judge thinks that day), would help preventing suicides and other crimes. The red flag laws - well - we know that some rampages have thrown off warning signs, and some have been stopped. Another empirical interaction of rights vs. violence prevention.

Given more than half gun deaths are suicides, we do need to deal with that beyond cliches. I posted a sticky about the NSSF approach with others at the top of this subforum.

 

[Beck]

About red flag laws. Many of my family members would be the last people on earth I'd want to have any power to interfere with my life. We can't choose our relatives, as they say. I either got all the good genes or I was adopted.

 

[tbaum]

As a retired cop I saw how orders of protection were issued and enforced. Most of them were a farce we usually got called when they wanted other party thrown out of the house after they let them move back in. They were also used as weapon against some one they were mad at. I can see the Red Flag laws used the same way. There needs to be a judicial hearing before any seizure could take place with ample evidence the seizure order is issued. I know some orders of protection are legitimate but the most I dealt with were not.

 

[Artg56]

As a retired cop I saw how orders of protection were issued and enforced. Most of them were a farce we usually got called when they wanted other party thrown out of the house after they let them move back in. They were also used as weapon against some one they were mad at. I can see the Red Flag laws used the same way. There needs to be a judicial hearing before any seizure could take place with ample evidence the seizure order is issued. I know some orders of protection are legitimate but the most I dealt with were not.

I have seen this play out with two of my friends who’s vindictive ex’s filed false protection orders resulting in the loss of their guns along with interfering with their joint custody agreement. When laws are passed with no regard for due process, abuse of these laws is expected and encouraged.

 

[DustyGmt]

I should probably be more apprised of this since I'm in Vermont, Phil Scott vetoed this garbage a year or two ago, I guess they had the majority to override the veto?

I don't know how anybody who actually lives in VT can say we have a gun violence problem with a straight face. It's the safest place in the country, maybe earth. The Anti's want to kill the narrative and make sure the opposition can't consistently point to Vermont and other 2A havens that strict gun control isn't needed to make a society inherently safer. They will just keep passing these stupid laws one by one and in 10 years they'll say, "see, we passed all these laws and look how safe we are" even though we've always been safe....

 

[JumboJVT]

This is just another knee-jerk reaction by the VT legislature to perceived threats that have no basis in fact. And of course the touchy-feelys who actually think there is any quantifiable number of suicides committed with arms purchased immediately before: they don't seem to be able to put any numbers to that belief. But the reason we are the safest place in the country has little to do with our historic lack of gun control. Its because we have the most homogenous demographic, a high cost of living, winters that are, well, winter, a lack of available housing and low population density. These factors make for an environment that is apparently less appealing to low-lives than other places. While I'd like to think the fear of never knowing who might actually have a gun at hand would be a significant deterrent to the miscreants, I don't believe that to be the truth. But it can't hurt.

There is a significant uptick in violent crime in the most populous county where our largest city Burlington (pop 48K, 170k in the county). But in large part that is the result of two factors: the open-arms welfare-State attitude of the dominant "progressive" local government, and the resultant reaction of the pandered-too population to the George Floyd incident, to which the local powers-that-be reacted to by gutting the police department. In light of the recent uptick in violent crime, the gumint seems to have reversed course and is now trying to un-ring that bell. But as might be expected, moral in the PD is low, recruitment, difficult in good times, is now nigh-on impossible. You reap what you sow. They deserve what they've grown and are welcome to it.

 

[Speedo66]

Interesting that they are so concerned with suicide by firearms when they just voted to allow out of staters to participate in their assisted suicide program.

Is one way okay, but not the other?

 

[Scooter22]

Interesting that they are so concerned with suicide by firearms when they just voted to allow out of staters to participate in their assisted suicide program.

Is one way okay, but not the other?

Which of the 2 do you think the state may make some money off of?

 

[DustyGmt]

My buddy just sent me a screenshot of an article that says Vermont also just apparently banned the formation of any "paramilitary training camps"

Just one more infringement of our collective right which I'm sure is very ill defined and has a very broad, open to interpretation definition.

It's weird, I went down to visit my uncle in SC and he said less than a couple miles away is an ISIS training camp that has been up and running for years, it's apparently not illegal but the place is monitored from what I was told, but even though it's monitored they can't legally shut it down.

 

[DustyGmt]

I don't belong to a paramilitary group, or even know what one would be considered, a bunch of guys that go into full larping mode every weekend? I'd like to know what constitutes a "paramilitary group". I imagine a bunch of guys dressing up with LBV's, plate carriers, messing around with radios and make believe military stuff, but most if not all of those guys are patriotic and have strong pro 2A views and that must be what they are going after.

Not trying to disparage all "PM groups" as posers and larpers, I'm sure some of them could be quite formiddable and could potentially serve an important function if things went REALLY sideways, but to ban them? Just seems like an anti-2A thing and an effort to limit the power of citizens and make people a lil easier to squish under their boot heels.....

 

[JumboJVT]

I don't belong to a paramilitary group, or even know what one would be considered, a bunch of guys that go into full larping mode every weekend? I'd like to know what constitutes a "paramilitary group". I imagine a bunch of guys dressing up with LBV's, plate carriers, messing around with radios and make believe military stuff, but most if not all of those guys are patriotic and have strong pro 2A views and that must be what they are going after.

Not trying to disparage all "PM groups" as posers and larpers, I'm sure some of them could be quite formidable and could potentially serve an important function if things went REALLY sideways, but to ban them? Just seems like an anti-2A thing and an effort to limit the power of citizens and make people a lil easier to squish under their boot heels.....

Another unenforceable VT law that makes the hard-wringers feel better about themselves. The actions are prohibited if, to paraphrase "the person knows or should know that the activity is intended to be used in or in furtherance of a civil disorder.” So once again a violation is defined by intent not action. Train as you were, but don't say anything on social media about using those skills in a SHTF scenario...now you're in trouble. Scott has reservations about the constitutionality of a 72 hr. waiting period but not this? Bewildering.

 

[Zahn]

Those "paramilitary groups" are often infiltrated with undercover agents and confidential informants, who have every intention to steer the group in the "furtherance of civil disorder". Isn't that what happened in Michigan with that group that was caught planning some sort of direct action against the governor? A voice in the back says "we should kidnap the governor" and all you have to say sarcastically is "yeah, is that a good idea?" and you're a co-conspirator.

 

[Meeks36]

Those "paramilitary groups" are often infiltrated with undercover agents and confidential informants, who have every intention to steer the group in the "furtherance of civil disorder". Isn't that what happened in Michigan with that group that was caught planning some sort of direct action against the governor? A voice in the back says "we should kidnap the governor" and all you have to say sarcastically is "yeah, is that a good idea?" and you're a co-conspirator.

Kinda how the Gov set up Randy weaver? Although he was at a white power camp when he was set up.

 

[gunmechanic]

What constitutes a para military group or any other thing the government wants is on a sliding scale that only slides in there direction .The citizens of this great nation better wise up. what is going on is destroying our REPUBLIC and our FREE way of life .

 

[shafter]

As a retired cop I saw how orders of protection were issued and enforced. Most of them were a farce we usually got called when they wanted other party thrown out of the house after they let them move back in. They were also used as weapon against some one they were mad at. I can see the Red Flag laws used the same way. There needs to be a judicial hearing before any seizure could take place with ample evidence the seizure order is issued. I know some orders of protection are legitimate but the most I dealt with were not.

Seen the same thing myself

 

[DustyGmt]

The actions are prohibited if, to paraphrase "the person knows or should know that the activity is intended to be used in or in furtherance of a civil disorder.”

That sounds like just any run of the mill protest we've had in recent years, except I'm guessing the enforcement would be more targeted toward a certain type....

 

[Ks5shooter]

72 hours or ten day wait.It will not prevent suicide etc after you own your your first firearm,no point.

 

[Spug]

I don't belong to a paramilitary group, or even know what one would be considered, a bunch of guys that go into full larping mode every weekend?

Look up "Slate Ridge" and there's your answer.