Wow, confiscated guns don't tend to be used in crimes, either before or after the fact...
Among other questions, why are not stolen firearms returned?
Doesn't this show the lack of faith in the Brady Background check?
Rick
--------------------------
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php
NEWS UPDATE
Should Mesa get into gun trade?
BY JASON EMERSON
Mesa [Arizona] TRIBUNE
Do firearms confiscated by East Valley police deserve to be destroyed?
Or, are seized guns merely objects - neither good nor bad - that pose little danger to society if sold to raise revenue? Those were the questions the Tribune hoped to answer when it selected a dozen firearms impounded by Mesa police in recent years and looked at their histories.
Mesa is considering selling confiscated and recovered firearms to licensed gun dealers, a move that could raise thousands of dollars a year.
That would be a shift in the city's policy of destroying impounded firearms, which began in 1998. Before then, the city auctioned guns to dealers. All other East Valley police departments destroy confiscated guns, a move each made following Mesa's lead.
In examining the history of a random selection of confiscated firearms, the Tribune hoped to shed light on whether it is sound policy to continue destroying them, or whether it makes more sense to sell them to gun dealers.
Instead, the newspaper's findings may cloud the issue more than ever.
On one hand, none of the firearms the Tribune selected were used to shoot a person. That may surprise people who assume most seized guns have been used in a violent crime. It didn't surprise police. They said a vast majority of confiscated firearms aren't connected with shootings or homicides.
In fact, the Tribune requested records for any impounded gun eligible for auction that was used to shoot a person. Out of more than 450 firearms waiting to be destroyed at the Mesa Police Department, officials couldn't locate one used in a shooting that would be eligible for auction, said Sgt. Mike Goulet.
Typically, firearms used to shoot people are valued at less than $100, have been altered illegally, or are military-style assault rifles - characteristics that disqualify them for auction, Goulet said. Firearms in these categories would continue to be destroyed even if the law is changed, Goulet said.
On the other hand, six of the firearms the newspaper checked were taken from felons or used in serious crimes such as the illegal-drug trade, aggravated assault and wrongful imprisonment.
The other six guns had no apparent connection to serious crime. One firearm was simply given to police by a man suffering from depression. One was found in the trunk of a car. Another was recovered with 75 stolen guns. Another was dropped off at a thrift store. And two rifles were seized because their owners were shooting at a streetlight.
In Mesa, top city officials disagree over whether confiscated weapons should be sold or destroyed.
They do agree the worstcase scenario is Mesa selling a weapon that is used to kill an innocent citizen or a police officer. Closely related are concerns that Mesa could be sued for crimes committed by a person wielding a cityauctioned gun.
"It's never going to meet the Monday-morning headline test," said Mesa Police Chief Jan Strauss. "In my opinion, the best method is destruction because then you don't have those concerns. It's obviously much more convenient to do it the way we've been doing it. We feel it's the wiser course."
Strauss stressed that the police department does not make city policy, and she will carry out the guidelines set by the City Council for confiscated weapons. Reversing the law would mean longer hours for the employees who dispose of seized guns, she said. Not surprisingly, supporters for and against the policy shift interpreted the Tribune's findings in different ways.
"To me, what they were used for is irrelevant," said Mesa Mayor Keno Hawker, who supports changing the law if there is no liability risk to the city. "They're pieces of iron. It's the user we've picked up and gotten off the street that's the danger."
"The problem isn't with guns," agreed Howie Owen, a manager at Bear Mountain gun shop, 899 E. Southern Ave. in Mesa. "It's only dangerous when some moron picks it up."
Selling confiscated firearms to gun dealers helps ensure they will not end up in the hands of criminals, Owen said, because most criminals don't buy from licensed dealers. Gun dealers are required to conduct background checks on potential buyers through the FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, Owen said.
"There is not a crook coming into these stores buying guns," Owen said. "And if I even hear somebody say they're mad at somebody I won't sell to them. I don't want it on my conscience."
Other advocates say the city is destroying a potential source of revenue. The city last auctioned guns in 1997, selling 346 firearms for $32,000, according to city records. Since 1998, the city has destroyed 1,892 firearms, records indicate.
"Cities are pressed for every dollar," said Landis Aden, a lobbyist for the Arizona State Rifle and Pistol Association. The agency opposes Mesa's policy of destroying weapons.
City Councilman Rex Griswold, who supports selling firearms to dealers, said he has received e-mails from constituents at a 9-to-1 ratio in favor of reversing the gun policy.
Still, "this is not an easy thing to decide one way or another," Griswold said.
But Vice Mayor Dennis Kavanaugh, who supports the policy, said he wasn't surprised that the Tribune found 50 percent of the weapons surveyed were connected to serious crime.
"What if one is used in commission of violent crime, or one of our firefighters or police officers are killed? " Kavanaugh said. "Should we be part of that firearm's history? Is it appropriate to continue that stream of activity of that firearm's life?
"I think trying to return to what we did before is an aggressive move that would have insignificant budget consequence but would not have any material effect on a person's ability to secure a firearm for defense," Kavanaugh said.
the oft-quoted anti-gunnie human-weeble Gerry Anderson, executive director of the Citizens of Arizona to Prevent Gun Violence, said her agency is trying to arrange meetings with Hawker to persuade him not to change the gun policy.
Anderson said she wasn't surprised at the Tribune's findings, and blasted the notion that selling to licensed dealers is a way to keep guns from criminals.
"There is no reason for them to be back on the street," Anderson said. "Can you imagine if you were a victim of gun violence and found out the same gun was going back on the street? It's very, very insensitive to victims."
Dr. Mary Rimsza, director of Arizona State University's student health center, opposes the idea because it would increase the number of guns in the community.
Rimsza, chairwoman of the Arizona Child Fatality Review Team, said records indicate that over the last five years, 317 children have been killed by handguns statewide.
"It's just the wrong message to send to the community," she said. "I'd rather have the city subsidizing car seats than guns."
What's going on in Mesa is not going to ripple quickly to other communities. Chandler, Tempe and Scottsdale officials said there has been no talk about following Mesa's lead if the city reverses its policy.
"I think we're pleased with our policy," said Chandler Mayor Boyd Dunn. "We feel these are not necessarily weapons we'd like to see back on the streets."
"There's been no discussion whatsoever," said Scottsdale Mayor Mary Manross. "I personally have no interest in putting weapons back on the street."
The Mesa City Council is awaiting word from City Attorney Debbie Spinner, who is researching liability risks related to selling confiscated firearms. Based on the outcome of Spinner's research, the council could hold public hearings on the issue sometime in the next 45 days.
Here are the biographies of 12 confiscated firearms the Tribune selected at random from the Mesa Police Department. Eight handguns and four rifles were chosen, reflecting the ratio of firearms impounded by police.
City officials are considering selling confiscated firearms to gun dealer to raise revenue.
Interarm MKX .35-caliber Whalen hunting rifle Estimated value: $2,000 - Police served a search warrant at an apartment in December 1998, recovering illegal drugs and 75 firearms, most stolen. The rifle was among the stolen weapons recovered.
Smith & Wesson Model 642 .38-caliber Special Estimated value: $379 - The firearm and six bullets were found in the trunk of a rental car. The company turned the weapon over to police.
Glock Model 21C .45-caliber Estimated value: $589 - Police confronted an intoxicated man carrying the Glock in an apartment complex parking lot in February 2001. The man, who later told police he suspected his girlfriend was cheating on him, pointed the gun at her and others at the apartment complex. When police confronted the man, he pointed the gun at them. Police did not fire because of the apartments in the background. When the man surrendered, he was arrested and charged with aggravated assault and endangerment.
Star Megastar .45-caliber. Estimated value: $500 - Two men brandishing badges, guns and police gear who identified themselves as "agents" entered hotel rooms in west Mesa in December 2000 looking for a man who jumped bail. Police say one of the men pulled a gun on a hotel patron and handcuffed two other people. The men turned out to be bail-bondsmen, who were later charged with multiple felonies, including impersonating public servants, aggravated assault and wrongful imprisonment. The weapon was among the gear confiscated.
Savage Fox .410-gauge shotgun Estimated value: $500 - The weapon was included in a box of firearms donated to a Mesa thrift store. The owners turned the weapons over to police.
Sig Sauer Model P220 .45-caliber Estimated value: $650 - An intoxicated man walked up to a police officer in September 1999 and told him he had the Sig Sauer in his vehicle and he was thinking about using the handgun to kill himself. The man said he was having family problems. Police confiscated the weapon.
Smith & Wesson Model 14 .38-caliber Special Estimated value: $350 - A routine traffic stop in April 2001 uncovered the handgun and 2.8 grams of methamphetamine. The driver was charged with possession of dangerous drugs and misconduct involving weapons.
Ruger GP100 .357-caliber Magnum Estimated value: $400 - A September 1999 drug raid at a house in central Mesa turned up sizable quantities of marijuana, methamphetamine and cocaine, and 25 firearms, including four that had been stolen. In the months before the raid, undercover officers went to the house and bought drugs and firearms that had been illegally altered.
Police said several children living at the house watched adults use and sell drugs, and had access to the guns and hundreds of pornographic magazines and videos. Several people were arrested. The Ruger was among the guns confiscated.
Colt MKIV Series 80 .45-caliber Estimated value: $700 - Police recovered the Colt while responding to reports of drug sales in a west Mesa hotel room in September 1999. The firearm, which turned out to be stolen, belonged to a man who was awaiting trial on charges of weapons misconduct. He was given an additional charge of interfering with judicial proceedings.
Remington 700 ADL .30-06-caliber hunting rifle Savage Fox 12-gauge shotgun Estimated value: $389 and $500 respectively - Police in February confiscated the firearms from two men shooting at a streetlight in northeast Mesa. They were charged with recklessly discharging firearms.
Beretta Model 92 FS 9 mm pistol Estimated value: $489 - Police watched a drug deal take place in November 2001 while staking out an east Mesa motel. They pulled over the drug buyers after they left the motel. A search of the vehicle revealed the Beretta and 13.5 grams of methamphetamine. Two suspects were charged with with possession of dangerous drugs.
Among other questions, why are not stolen firearms returned?
Doesn't this show the lack of faith in the Brady Background check?
Rick
--------------------------
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php
NEWS UPDATE
Should Mesa get into gun trade?
BY JASON EMERSON
Mesa [Arizona] TRIBUNE
Do firearms confiscated by East Valley police deserve to be destroyed?
Or, are seized guns merely objects - neither good nor bad - that pose little danger to society if sold to raise revenue? Those were the questions the Tribune hoped to answer when it selected a dozen firearms impounded by Mesa police in recent years and looked at their histories.
Mesa is considering selling confiscated and recovered firearms to licensed gun dealers, a move that could raise thousands of dollars a year.
That would be a shift in the city's policy of destroying impounded firearms, which began in 1998. Before then, the city auctioned guns to dealers. All other East Valley police departments destroy confiscated guns, a move each made following Mesa's lead.
In examining the history of a random selection of confiscated firearms, the Tribune hoped to shed light on whether it is sound policy to continue destroying them, or whether it makes more sense to sell them to gun dealers.
Instead, the newspaper's findings may cloud the issue more than ever.
On one hand, none of the firearms the Tribune selected were used to shoot a person. That may surprise people who assume most seized guns have been used in a violent crime. It didn't surprise police. They said a vast majority of confiscated firearms aren't connected with shootings or homicides.
In fact, the Tribune requested records for any impounded gun eligible for auction that was used to shoot a person. Out of more than 450 firearms waiting to be destroyed at the Mesa Police Department, officials couldn't locate one used in a shooting that would be eligible for auction, said Sgt. Mike Goulet.
Typically, firearms used to shoot people are valued at less than $100, have been altered illegally, or are military-style assault rifles - characteristics that disqualify them for auction, Goulet said. Firearms in these categories would continue to be destroyed even if the law is changed, Goulet said.
On the other hand, six of the firearms the newspaper checked were taken from felons or used in serious crimes such as the illegal-drug trade, aggravated assault and wrongful imprisonment.
The other six guns had no apparent connection to serious crime. One firearm was simply given to police by a man suffering from depression. One was found in the trunk of a car. Another was recovered with 75 stolen guns. Another was dropped off at a thrift store. And two rifles were seized because their owners were shooting at a streetlight.
In Mesa, top city officials disagree over whether confiscated weapons should be sold or destroyed.
They do agree the worstcase scenario is Mesa selling a weapon that is used to kill an innocent citizen or a police officer. Closely related are concerns that Mesa could be sued for crimes committed by a person wielding a cityauctioned gun.
"It's never going to meet the Monday-morning headline test," said Mesa Police Chief Jan Strauss. "In my opinion, the best method is destruction because then you don't have those concerns. It's obviously much more convenient to do it the way we've been doing it. We feel it's the wiser course."
Strauss stressed that the police department does not make city policy, and she will carry out the guidelines set by the City Council for confiscated weapons. Reversing the law would mean longer hours for the employees who dispose of seized guns, she said. Not surprisingly, supporters for and against the policy shift interpreted the Tribune's findings in different ways.
"To me, what they were used for is irrelevant," said Mesa Mayor Keno Hawker, who supports changing the law if there is no liability risk to the city. "They're pieces of iron. It's the user we've picked up and gotten off the street that's the danger."
"The problem isn't with guns," agreed Howie Owen, a manager at Bear Mountain gun shop, 899 E. Southern Ave. in Mesa. "It's only dangerous when some moron picks it up."
Selling confiscated firearms to gun dealers helps ensure they will not end up in the hands of criminals, Owen said, because most criminals don't buy from licensed dealers. Gun dealers are required to conduct background checks on potential buyers through the FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, Owen said.
"There is not a crook coming into these stores buying guns," Owen said. "And if I even hear somebody say they're mad at somebody I won't sell to them. I don't want it on my conscience."
Other advocates say the city is destroying a potential source of revenue. The city last auctioned guns in 1997, selling 346 firearms for $32,000, according to city records. Since 1998, the city has destroyed 1,892 firearms, records indicate.
"Cities are pressed for every dollar," said Landis Aden, a lobbyist for the Arizona State Rifle and Pistol Association. The agency opposes Mesa's policy of destroying weapons.
City Councilman Rex Griswold, who supports selling firearms to dealers, said he has received e-mails from constituents at a 9-to-1 ratio in favor of reversing the gun policy.
Still, "this is not an easy thing to decide one way or another," Griswold said.
But Vice Mayor Dennis Kavanaugh, who supports the policy, said he wasn't surprised that the Tribune found 50 percent of the weapons surveyed were connected to serious crime.
"What if one is used in commission of violent crime, or one of our firefighters or police officers are killed? " Kavanaugh said. "Should we be part of that firearm's history? Is it appropriate to continue that stream of activity of that firearm's life?
"I think trying to return to what we did before is an aggressive move that would have insignificant budget consequence but would not have any material effect on a person's ability to secure a firearm for defense," Kavanaugh said.
the oft-quoted anti-gunnie human-weeble Gerry Anderson, executive director of the Citizens of Arizona to Prevent Gun Violence, said her agency is trying to arrange meetings with Hawker to persuade him not to change the gun policy.
Anderson said she wasn't surprised at the Tribune's findings, and blasted the notion that selling to licensed dealers is a way to keep guns from criminals.
"There is no reason for them to be back on the street," Anderson said. "Can you imagine if you were a victim of gun violence and found out the same gun was going back on the street? It's very, very insensitive to victims."
Dr. Mary Rimsza, director of Arizona State University's student health center, opposes the idea because it would increase the number of guns in the community.
Rimsza, chairwoman of the Arizona Child Fatality Review Team, said records indicate that over the last five years, 317 children have been killed by handguns statewide.
"It's just the wrong message to send to the community," she said. "I'd rather have the city subsidizing car seats than guns."
What's going on in Mesa is not going to ripple quickly to other communities. Chandler, Tempe and Scottsdale officials said there has been no talk about following Mesa's lead if the city reverses its policy.
"I think we're pleased with our policy," said Chandler Mayor Boyd Dunn. "We feel these are not necessarily weapons we'd like to see back on the streets."
"There's been no discussion whatsoever," said Scottsdale Mayor Mary Manross. "I personally have no interest in putting weapons back on the street."
The Mesa City Council is awaiting word from City Attorney Debbie Spinner, who is researching liability risks related to selling confiscated firearms. Based on the outcome of Spinner's research, the council could hold public hearings on the issue sometime in the next 45 days.
Here are the biographies of 12 confiscated firearms the Tribune selected at random from the Mesa Police Department. Eight handguns and four rifles were chosen, reflecting the ratio of firearms impounded by police.
City officials are considering selling confiscated firearms to gun dealer to raise revenue.
Interarm MKX .35-caliber Whalen hunting rifle Estimated value: $2,000 - Police served a search warrant at an apartment in December 1998, recovering illegal drugs and 75 firearms, most stolen. The rifle was among the stolen weapons recovered.
Smith & Wesson Model 642 .38-caliber Special Estimated value: $379 - The firearm and six bullets were found in the trunk of a rental car. The company turned the weapon over to police.
Glock Model 21C .45-caliber Estimated value: $589 - Police confronted an intoxicated man carrying the Glock in an apartment complex parking lot in February 2001. The man, who later told police he suspected his girlfriend was cheating on him, pointed the gun at her and others at the apartment complex. When police confronted the man, he pointed the gun at them. Police did not fire because of the apartments in the background. When the man surrendered, he was arrested and charged with aggravated assault and endangerment.
Star Megastar .45-caliber. Estimated value: $500 - Two men brandishing badges, guns and police gear who identified themselves as "agents" entered hotel rooms in west Mesa in December 2000 looking for a man who jumped bail. Police say one of the men pulled a gun on a hotel patron and handcuffed two other people. The men turned out to be bail-bondsmen, who were later charged with multiple felonies, including impersonating public servants, aggravated assault and wrongful imprisonment. The weapon was among the gear confiscated.
Savage Fox .410-gauge shotgun Estimated value: $500 - The weapon was included in a box of firearms donated to a Mesa thrift store. The owners turned the weapons over to police.
Sig Sauer Model P220 .45-caliber Estimated value: $650 - An intoxicated man walked up to a police officer in September 1999 and told him he had the Sig Sauer in his vehicle and he was thinking about using the handgun to kill himself. The man said he was having family problems. Police confiscated the weapon.
Smith & Wesson Model 14 .38-caliber Special Estimated value: $350 - A routine traffic stop in April 2001 uncovered the handgun and 2.8 grams of methamphetamine. The driver was charged with possession of dangerous drugs and misconduct involving weapons.
Ruger GP100 .357-caliber Magnum Estimated value: $400 - A September 1999 drug raid at a house in central Mesa turned up sizable quantities of marijuana, methamphetamine and cocaine, and 25 firearms, including four that had been stolen. In the months before the raid, undercover officers went to the house and bought drugs and firearms that had been illegally altered.
Police said several children living at the house watched adults use and sell drugs, and had access to the guns and hundreds of pornographic magazines and videos. Several people were arrested. The Ruger was among the guns confiscated.
Colt MKIV Series 80 .45-caliber Estimated value: $700 - Police recovered the Colt while responding to reports of drug sales in a west Mesa hotel room in September 1999. The firearm, which turned out to be stolen, belonged to a man who was awaiting trial on charges of weapons misconduct. He was given an additional charge of interfering with judicial proceedings.
Remington 700 ADL .30-06-caliber hunting rifle Savage Fox 12-gauge shotgun Estimated value: $389 and $500 respectively - Police in February confiscated the firearms from two men shooting at a streetlight in northeast Mesa. They were charged with recklessly discharging firearms.
Beretta Model 92 FS 9 mm pistol Estimated value: $489 - Police watched a drug deal take place in November 2001 while staking out an east Mesa motel. They pulled over the drug buyers after they left the motel. A search of the vehicle revealed the Beretta and 13.5 grams of methamphetamine. Two suspects were charged with with possession of dangerous drugs.
