Arkansas: Must notify the officer when carrying (rule change)

[Kilgor]

http://www.asp.arkansas.gov/divisions/rs/pdf/CHCL rules_effective date 010109.pdf

Rule 3.2 Contact with law enforcement
(a) While in possession of a concealed handgun, the licensee shall present the original
license for inspection, along with an official form of photo identification, upon request
for identification by any law enforcement officer.
(b) In any official contact with law enforcement, if the licensee IS in possession of a
handgun, when the officer asks the licensee for identification (driver’s license, or
personal information, such as name and date of birth), the licensee shall notify the
officer that he or she holds a concealed handgun carry license and that he or she has a
handgun in his or her possession.
(c) In any official contact with law enforcement, if the licensee IS NOT in possession of
a handgun, when the officer asks the licensee for identification (driver’s license, or
personal information, such as name and date of birth), the licensee shall not be
required to notify the officer that he or she holds a concealed handgun carry license and
does not have a handgun in his or her possession.
(d) An official form of photo identification shall be, but is not limited to, any of the
following:
(1) Current and valid Arkansas driver's license;
(2) Current and valid military identification card; or
(3) Current and valid United States passport.
Effective date January 1, 2009 8
(e) Reproduced copies of the official form of photo identification or copies of the original
concealed handgun carry license shall not be accepted.

 

[DeepintheHeart]

Same applies in Texas, I believe, based on my recent CHL class. The instructor said to be safe you should ALWAYS present your CHL with your driver's license if you're pulled over for any reason. They're going to pull you up anyway, and if you didn't volunteer the fact, you're going to look suspicious. He also recommended a passenger volunteer the information if he's carrying, even if he's not driving. I'm a little more dubious about that, but it probably is best to bring out that information at the get-go.

 

[Kim]

Are they going to send a certified letter to every CHL person and notify them of the change or just get to arrest and harrass a bunch of people who have no way of knowing the law has changed.

 

[Kilgor]

Are they going to send a certified letter to every CHL person and notify them of the change or just get to arrest and harrass a bunch of people who have no way of knowing the law has changed.

Exactly my concern. This was put through by an unelected official, without a comment period, and with no media coverage. No public input whatsoever.

I just happened to catch it while I was refreshing myself on the laws governing concealed carry in Arkansas. All those people that were taught otherwise in their CHL classes are in for a rude awakening.

 

[CAPTAIN MIKE]

Use Common Sense

Here's what I recommend if stopped by an officer:
* Hands on the steering wheel at 10 and 2
* "Hi Officer. My vehicle registration & proof of insurance are in the visor pocket - and my driver's license and concealed carry permit are in my wallet on my right hip. My sidearm (don't ever call it a G..g..g...g...gun) is also on my right hip. How do you want to proceed?"

I have found that my positive and polite attitude, and the fact that I am as concerned about "officer safety" as he or she is ends up being very 'helpful' when it comes time to either write me a ticker or (better yet) give me a friendly warning. In each case, my CCW permit has proven to the officer that I'm a 'certified Good Guy' and we end up not getting a ticket at all but instead involved in a friendly conversation before I'm sent on my way with a reminder to 'Be Careful'.

Bottom Line: use common sense. Notify the officer early in the conversation but use the terminology of 'Sidearm' rather than 'gun'. That's the same term they use, and it is less threatening. Moreover, the fact that you are notifying the officer that you are a CCW permit holder goes a long way to reducing the officer's stress over the stop.

 

[razorback2003]

That is not Arkansas criminal statute. That is Ark State Police making up their own little garbage rules..and they think they can do that quite often. Arkansas STATE law is that you are to present your license/permit when asked for your license/permit. You do NOT have to inform on the front end.

It is very similar to ASP saying it is against the law to drink when carrying a handgun...when if you read the actual statute it says that you can't break an alcohol related offense while carrying (DWI, public intox, drinking on the public road)...nowhere does the law say a CHL cannot drink.

 

[General Geoff]

It's none of the officer's business that I'm armed. I'm glad my state doesn't require disclosure during traffic stops.

 

[Kilgor]

Razorback2003,

It does have the force of law. You can be arrested, prosecuted, and jailed for it. I'm not saying it was done the right way (it wasn't), but it does have the force of law.

 

[Kilgor]

Double tap.

 

[razorback2003]

Policy is different than law. They want you to tell them...but that doesn't mean you have to inform in Arkansas. I took my CHL class in Arkansas and also just read the statutes regarding when to produce a CHL to a LEO...no duty inform if you go to www.arkleg.state.ar.us....check for yourself. Nothing has changed in the several years since i took my class.

 

[Kilgor]

Unfortunately you are incorrect on this.

 

[Treo]

Hi Officer. My vehicle registration & proof of insurance are in the visor pocket - and my driver's license and concealed carry permit are in my wallet on my right hip. My sidearm (don't ever call it a G..g..g...g...gun) is also on my right hip. How do you want to proceed?"

Ummm no

DISCLAIMER THE FOLLOWING DOES NOT APPLY IF YOU HAVE A LEGAL DUTY TO INFORM
Unless the officer is going to pat you down or specifically asks you if you are armed there is no good reason to volunteer the information.

All it does is open you up to harassment from an anti cop. As a general rule the less information you give a cop during an official encounter the better off you are

 

[opd743]

Unless the officer is going to pat you down or specifically asks you if you are armed there is no good reason to volunteer the information.

As a policeman, I have to agree with Treo on this one. I could care less if a CCW permit holder is carrying during my stop of them. What I believe and the way I have finally got some of the other officers I work with to believe, is that a CCW holder has the gun for protection not for bad intentions. Like I tell them, I carried guns long before I was a cop.

 

[Kilgor]

Here's my email to the Arkansas State Police and the Arkansas Attorney General's office:

Dear sir or madam:

In the recent publication "DEPARTMENT OF ARKANSAS STATE POLICE ARKANSAS CONCEALED HANDGUN CARRY LICENSE RULES" a new rule requiring a permit holder to notify a law enforcement officer of the fact that they possess a handgun and provide the original concealed carry license during an official contact was added. Here is the direct link to the publication in question:

http://www.asp.arkansas.gov/division...e 010109.pdf

The publication further states that "the purpose of these Rules is to provide guidelines in conformity with Arkansas laws as to issuance and governance of applicants for new, renewal, or transfer licenses to carry a concealed handgun in the State of Arkansas as issued by the Department of Arkansas State Police; and to provide standards and guidelines to instructors who train concealed handgun carry license applicants."

Will you please identify for me where in the Arkansas code it requires a person to notify an officer of their personal armament during an official contact? I cannot find it and believe that these new rules do not "provide guidelines in conformity with Arkansas laws as to issuance and governance of applicants for new, renewal, or transfer licenses to carry a concealed handgun in the State of Arkansas." As such, I believe that these rules attempt to create state law, which is the legislature's charge. The fact that this was done by unelected officials, without public comment, and without oversight is wrong.

Currently, 38 states in the union do not require officer notification. I believe this change in Arkansas is to the detriment of individual rights. A law abiding citizen going about his daily routine should not be required to reveal the contents of his pockets to a law enforcement officer just because the law enforcement officer makes contact with them.

Thank you for your assistance with this matter and I look forward to hearing back from you soon.

XXXXX XXXXXX

 

[Zach S]

As a policeman, I have to agree with Treo on this one. I could care less if a CCW permit holder is carrying during my stop of them. What I believe and the way I have finally got some of the other officers I work with to believe, is that a CCW holder has the gun for protection not for bad intentions. Like I tell them, I carried guns long before I was a cop.

That seems to be the attitude most of the LEOs I've informed.

I hate the duty to inform here in NC, but its got me out of a few minor tickets. I went through a few DUI checkpoints on new years day and they didn't even look at my plate. Just looked at my license, registration, and permit, handed them back and said have a nice night.

I got home and realized my tag died in december...

 

[mgkdrgn]

Are they going to send a certified letter to every CHL person and notify them of the change or just get to arrest and harrass a bunch of people who have no way of knowing the law has changed.

I don't know ... do you get a certified letter any time any other law changes? Can't use your cell phone in your car ... no radar detectors ... must shovel your sidewalk within 24 hours of a snowfall ...

I know I don't.

 

[grimjaw]

I don't know ... do you get a certified letter any time any other law changes?

I do receive emails from the state regarding some changes, but they have more to do with my personal information that rules changes. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, as they say.

When I recently applied for an updated driver's license with a new address, I got two separate mailed letters from the state .gov telling me that my address had been changed. One was mailed to my old address, the other my new address.

I received nothing about the CCL rules change, and thanks to Kilgor for posting it.

jm

 

[Bubba613]

It's none of the officer's business that I'm armed. I'm glad my state doesn't require disclosure during traffic stops

+1.
I don't see the need for the law. Permit holders shoot cops about zero times per 1000 permit holders.
Now, if they had a law mandating that felons inform the officer he was armed, that would be useful.
Or sort of anyway.

 

[Kilgor]

Response from Arkansas State Police:

Mr.XXXXXX,

See ACA §5-73-315 of attached Arkansas law concerning notification of a law enforcement officer.

We do not feel that this clarification in the rule is inconsistent with Arkansas law.

The rule making process included a public hearing, extensive public comment period and a review by Legislative Council (elected officials).

Please let me know if you have any further questions.


Cora Gentry

 

[Kilgor]

My response:

Ms. Gentry,

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply. As I read it, the code puts the onus on the officer to demand the license. Only then must the license holder produce the license and identification. Nowhere do I see that a license holder has to advise the officer that he/she is in possession of a handgun. As the new ASP rule is written, the onus is on the license holder to present the license during any official contact without the officer requesting it AND to advise the officer that he/she is in possession of a handgun. I don't see how the code could be interpreted to require either of these things. It seems to be very straight forward language.

What penalties may be levied on a license holder for failure to comply with this rule and where is justification in the code for this penalty?

For quick reference I pasted the applicable code below.

XXXXXXX

§5-73-315. Possession of license — Identification of licensee.
(a) Any licensee possessing a valid license issued pursuant to this subchapter may carry a concealed handgun.

(b) The licensee shall:

(1) Carry the license, together with valid identification, at any time when the licensee is carrying a concealed handgun; and

(2) Display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer.

 

[Seminole]

What penalties may be levied on a license holder for failure to comply with this rule and where is justification in the code for this penalty?

Very good question. Hold their feet to the fire.

 

[Lightninstrike]

That is the way its done. Rational, reasonable discourse based on the facts and the law.

 

[Kilgor]

Arkansas State Police reply:

Our reasoning is that since there are millions of Arkansas residents over the age of twenty-one that could come in contact with a law enforcement officer, it would be less than productive to have each officer ask every person that they came in contact with for their CHCL. So only when the officer asks for the person’s identification and the licensee is in possession of their handgun (they are not required to disclose if they are not in possession) does the requirement to show their CHCL kick in.

This matter came up in our public hearing that was held November 3, 2008 (see notice published in October 2008). The comment at that time was that the licensee should not be required to disclose if they were not carrying their handgun. We took that into consideration.

Just out of curiosity, I don’t show that you hold an Arkansas CHCL, is there a specific reason for your interest in this issue?

 

[Kilgor]

For those intereseted, I have a nonresident out of state CHL that permits me to carry in Arknasas.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

My reply:

Ms. Gentry,

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I understand why the ASP would desire to have this rule in place. I don't, however see anything in the Arkansas code that falls into line with the ASP's new rules. Again, I would be very interested in knowing what penalties may be levied on a license holder for failure to comply with this rule and where is justification in the code for this penalty?

As to my reason for interest, I am a citizen of the state Arkansas that is concerned when I see citizen's rights being quashed. This is especially true when it appears that a public agency has stepped beyond the law as passed by the legislature and signed by the governor.

Again, thank you very much for your time.

XXXXX XXXXXXX

 

[bamawrx]

Keep it up Kilgore. Can you believe she "pulled you up"? Too much power in too few hands if you ask me.