Arm a developing country on the cheap

[cluttonfred]

OK, this is just a thought experiment, so bear with me.

Let's say that some little island or territory has declared independence and the country they used to be part of has let them go without a fight. Now they have to equip a national guard of 1,000 men and women which does double duty as police and army. That's 50 officers, 150 NCOs and 800 enlished men and women.

Let's imagine that they have no real gun culture, nothing much in inventory and no preconceived ideas about what to use. They know that their little military will never be a real threat to anybody, but they do want to be able to control their borders, fight crime and terrorism, and have a little dignity. Their new country has some urban areas, some open farmland and some forest, so their weapons must be versatile.

They don't want to be beholden to anybody else, so they won't accept any military aid, and they want to remain completely non-aligned, so they don't want anything associated with political associations, like AR-15s or AK-47s. In fact, they want only new, commercially-available weapons, nothing surplus.

They can afford to spend $1,000,000 initially, but that will include a big initial cost for ammo, spare magazines, accessories, parts and training, so let's say just $500,000 for guns. That's an average of just $500 per soldier for their weapons -- all their firearms, including sidearms.

Using firearms commercially-available in the U.S., and U.S. street prices, what do you arm them with for an average of just $500 per soldier?

 

[MakAttak]

Using firearms commercially-available in the U.S., and U.S. street prices, what do you arm them with for an average of just $500 per soldier?

Uhhh... Hi-point or a glock.

Honestly, have you seen the prices of weapons? $500 isn't going far.

Maybe a hi-point carbine and a really good deal on a glock. Both in 9mm.

 

[Cyclimus]

The Bermuda military uses the fully auto version of the Mini-14. I'd probably start along those lines if I were in charge. I might not even consider arming any but the NCOs and officers with sidearms due to the size of the force.

 

[Halo]

Might this little island be called Everon, or am I the only Operation Flashpoint geek?

 

[Chipperman]

Honestly, have you seen the prices of weapons? $500 isn't going far

They would probably get a pretty good discount from a company for buying 1000 rifles/pistols at once.

 

[Gunnerpalace]

WASR-10's

After the country gets on it's feet I'll go will MSR AUG's

 

[Picard]

I'd arm them with an SKS and perhaps a Bersa Thunder (9mm) as a sidearm. I think that would be a good balance for around $500. If I were making the official choice, I would try to stay by military surplus if possible to allow them to get the most gun for the money.

 

[leadcounsel]

Simple -

1. Riflemen get SKS or WWII Mauser type or Swiss Bolt Action rifles for $100-200 each (bought in bulk).

2. The savings is spent on a squad level AK47.

3. Each platoon has a sniper bolt action rifle with a quality scope and a spotter with an SKS.

4. Each platoon also has a belt fed RPK or similar weapon.

 

[cluttonfred]

Since it's my thread, I get to go first.

Under the circumstances, they need to minimize the types of weapons and ammunition. That means common calibers and as few as possible. Still, the varying requirements of police and army use are problematic, and commercial purchase means no full-auto or cheap SMGs. I said they wouldn't accept AK, or I'd have just said Saigas all around, or SKSs, or even Mosin Nagants if surplus were OK. So...

STANDARD LONGARM (800) $160,000
Hi Point Carbine - 9mm - $200 each
Cheap to buy, cheap to practice, easy to shoot regardless of experience, good for police use and anyone whose main job is not rifleman.

STANDARD SIDEARM (1100) $165,000
Hi Point C9 Compact - 9mm - $150 each
See above, we're on a budget

ELITE LONG ARM (250) $125,000
Kel Tec SU-16 - .223 - $500 each
Again, Saigas would be better and half the price, but this isn't bad and would be for those units with the most military responsibilities.

SPECIAL PURPOSE LONG ARM (50) $25,000
Stevens 200 w/tactical scope - .308 - $300 each + $200 scope/mount
Sometimes you just need to reach our and touch someone, police sniper or designated marksman use, sorry about the additional caliber, but we need something with range.

That's $475,000, including 10% extra in both longarms and sidearms to provide some spares. They can use the last $25,000 for standalone 40mm grenade launchers (with their own stock) for both police (non-lethal) and military (explosive) use.

There, my work is done.

EDIT: Too slow, not even close to being first.

 

[cluttonfred]

Hmm, the premise was no surplus weapons, only new guns commerically-available in the U.S and not AR or AK because of their political associations.

Otherwise we would have armed them all with $200 Yugo SKSs, $100 Mosin Nagants with $200 scopes for the snipers, and $200 CZ-82s as sidearms for everyone and we'd still get some change back for some RPGs. ;-)

 

[blkbrd666]

Any of the carbines and pistols that both shoot 9mm and have interchaneable mags. Would additionally consider a few .223 rifles for anything requiring a bit more range...anything .308 may inflict collateral damage on the "next" island.

 

[jlbraun]

IMHO, this premise is inherently problematic:

so they don't want anything associated with political associations, like AR-15s or AK-47s.

WTH would you not arm them with the cheapest, most effective, most reliable, most available weapon on the market (the semi-auto AK?). And in the "commercially available" market, I'll take RPGs because you can manufacture those for well under $500. AT RPG rounds are dead simple to make, and the launchers even more so.

Second, there is no police. Don't need 'em, and creating a police force is out of budget. Every citizen buys a pistol out of their own pocket. 9mm ammo is free to anyone.

That said, I would follow the Chechnya model, as it has proven to be very effective for small forces:
Organize into fire teams of three, for $1500 per fire team
For said fire team:

Man 1:
1 RPG-7, 3 AT grenades($350), personal pistol.

Man 2:
1 converted Saiga, 5 magazines, side mount detachable scope ($600), personal pistol.

Man3:
1 RPG-7, 3 AT grenades ($350), personal pistol.

3 radios ($200)

Officer corps: personal pistol

 

[cluttonfred]

I agree that the premise is unrealistic, especially for a poor country that can't afford to be sentimental, but there are plenty of examples of both wealthy and poor nations that chose to develop their own weapons or buy less common ones in order to maintain complete independence. Switzerland comes to mind, but several Latin American countries, too, even the humble Dominican Republic with it's San Cristobal .30 carbine SMGs and of course Yugoslavia. That said, it's a lot easier to be like the Finns and take the best from both sides.

I suppose I could have come up with some sort of zombie premise and had you put together an army with whatever you can find at Wal-Mart. ;-)

 

[CYANIDEGENOCIDE]

not to p*ss in anyone's cherrios here but why couldn't they have full auto weapons? what country would not allow full auto for government use? commercially available means no full auto? police agencies get full auto for swat teams those are all commercially available, and besides a full auto firearm is more simple and has a lower parts count than a semi auto. now as far as service life, and ammo costs i think semi gets the upper hand. All those factors in mind when buying military arms there's a huge price break, IIRC a beretta 92 for the US military is only like $196 (can i get a confirmation or correction).
with such a small budget i think you would be hard pressed to do any better than an ak-74 or a vz-58 and an RIA 1911

 

[Feanaro]

No, it's not surplus. That's a new production rifle from Serbia. Stripper clip fed, available in 7.62x51, 37" OAL, and based on the venerable Mauser action. If you go straight to the Serbian factory, Zavasta I think, you could probably knock more than a hundred bucks off the price.

Put the soldiers in squads of ten for simplicity. Call it $350 for the rifles. I think that's a fair discount for a bulk order straight from the factory. One soldiers out of every ten has a support weapon, so that's 900 men.

$315,000 for their rifles. That leaves $850 per support gunner. A Pakistani MG3 copy can't be more than that and I know RPGs can be had cheaper.

 

[lee n. field]

A million $US? That's into budget range of a big city police department.

Try and cut a deal with Glock on the handguns.

"New, commercially available weapons". Gonna have a hard time fitting a rifle in on that budget. Savage Scout with a 10 round magazine in your caliber of choice? With a large purchase the manufacturer can customize to your specs. Then train them to be riflemen -- aimed fire.

A few Mossberg 500 or Mavericks.

Set your high school shop students to making Stens.

 

[Kacerdias]

For such a lowball budget, new and commercially available weaponry is really pushing it. If I had a fledgling nation that needed lots of cheap full autos (lets face it, select fire is a necessity for the military) then I'd use some of the money to make a bunch of Sten MK II's. The design doesn't get any simpler than that - it can be made of household plumbing items. The Sten worked wonderfully for the British in WWII and was adopted by the Israeli Special Forces before the Uzi was developed in-house. For troops that require a more fullsize auto rifle, a Steyr AUG would be great.

For sidearms, the CZ75B would be a great choice since they are cheap, available, accurate, rugged, and fire the venerable 9mm.

For a long-range sniper rifle, why not a Beretta 501 Sniper in .308? They aren't that pricey and its well made.

The majority of the money needs to be spent in training this makeshift army. Once the country's economy is up and running then these weapons can be made available to ALL citizens for the cost of materials and the military can then be outfitted with the latest/greatest.

 

[Claude Clay]

mosins & cz 52's

oh.....nothing surplus. sorry about that, chief.

 

[Feanaro]

lets face it, select fire is a necessity for the military

Could you explain the rationale behind that? The last thing I'd want every man in my little island army doing is spraying bullets all over the place. Having a base of fire is certainly good, that's what squad MGs are for, but it is really necessary for every soldier to have full auto at their fingertips? Maybe I am overlooking something.

 

[jlbraun]

I think that squad MGs are outclassed by the RPG. MGs are not anything to be feared by vehicles, but RPGs are.

Widespread RPGs do a lot to make an invading army think twice. Leave MGs to shore defenses.

 

[mbt2001]

Call Norinco, order a lot of Type 56 AK's. They don't come cheaper than that.

 

[Feanaro]

I think that squad MGs are outclassed by the RPG. MGs are not anything to be feared by vehicles, but RPGs are.

On an island small enough for a 1000 man military, I doubt vehicles are going to be as big a threat as they would be in most of the world. The MG would be very useful for this type of fighting, especially on a jungle island. I could wrong though. That's why my budget included enough money for both.

 

[ctdonath]

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
- Robert Anson Heinlein

 

[jlbraun]

On an island small enough for a 1000 man military, I doubt vehicles are going to be as big a threat as they would be in most of the world. The MG would be very useful for this type of fighting, especially on a jungle island. I could wrong though. That's why my budget included enough money for both.

True. RPGs and assault rifles for city defenders, MGs and sniper rifles for those living in the country.

 

[ctdonath]

A whole lotta factors point at bolt-action only, not the least of which is ammo costs. Sounds like they won't use 'em "for real" much, but they should be able to practice enough, and in a way which encourages effectiveness would-be opponents should fear. Arrange for a large order of something built around the "scout rifle" concept, suitably general purpose. Whatever arms are procured, you'll only have enough $$$ left for about a thousand rounds of ammo, which isn't much; choose a tool that consumes its food sparingly yet hits hard & accurately when needed.

Don't see the point of most of the limitations presented. If ARs and AKs are disallowed for vague political reasons, you've got more immediate problems than equipping a little-used military. If anything, you DO want to piggyback on the benefits of mass production.