Armed robbers shoot compliant victim

[Mikhail Weiss]

An armed robbery occurred this past Tuesday, February 2, at about 10:00 pm, near my neck of the woods, in a business of a kind in which I used to work, and in which friends still do (in fact, I've met the owner of this particular business on a number of occasions). This was among the worst-case scenarios that I and my coworkers entertained: Convenience store clerk is working alone at night when two guys enter. One is armed with a shotgun. The compliant clerk gets shot.

The link to the video is here: http://www.newsok.com/multimedia/video/64906084001. There is no sound, and it doesn't show the clerk getting shot (may he survive to testify against those who shot him, and may he also see them imprisoned for a very long time). But it does show a number of other things. My question for Strategies and Tactics is this:

Suppose you are that clerk. Suppose the video shows pretty much what you see. Suppose that you are armed. What do you do, when do you do it, and why?

I have my own ideas. I'm interested in yours.

(Ideas and observations appreciated.)

 

[texas bulldog]

what!?! i thought just giving them whatever they want was always the best defense. just ask the brady bunch.

seriously though...he had a very clear opportunity around the 0:41 mark when both perps had their backs turned to him for a handful of seconds. the one with the shotgun was nearer to him and could have been shot before he even realized what was happening. when you have that window, you have to take it. it may be the only one you get.

honestly, even without being armed, that was the clerk's best opportunity to either attack or run. he might have been able to disarm the guy at that point while he wasn't paying attention. dangerous? certainly. better than being shot at point blank range while on your knees or laying prone? hell yes.

 

[JoeSlomo]

At about :20 that dude would be losing his shotgun as he gets way too close and he is only holding it with one hand.

Bye bye shotty!

From there it would get interesting...

 

[Mikhail Weiss]

texas bulldog:

...he had a very clear opportunity around the 0:41 mark when both perps had their backs turned to him for a handful of seconds. the one with the shotgun was nearer to him and could have been shot before he even realized what was happening. when you have that window, you have to take it. it may be the only one you get.

I noticed that, too. There appear to have been a handful of opportunities to take some action other than, unfortunately, waiting, even if that action meant nothing more than running for the back door. I suspect there was a great big, “I can't believe that what I think is happening is really happening,” moment. I also suspect that, short of psychological preparation for such an event, most people would react much as the clerk.

honestly, even without being armed, that was the clerk's best opportunity to either attack or run. he might have been able to disarm the guy at that point while he wasn't paying attention. dangerous? certainly. better than being shot at point blank range while on your knees or laying prone? hell yes.

Much agreed. Thank you for your input.

 

[Mikhail Weiss]

JoeSlomo:

At about :20 that dude would be losing his shotgun as he gets way too close and he is only holding it with one hand.

Does this advocate tussling for the shotgun over shooting the man? At about :18 to :19, shotgun man can be seen drawing the shotgun from the waist of his pants, evidently having carried it down the pant leg.

Granted, shooting the shotgun wielder may be asking for a lot from reactive human nature, considering the relative quickness of the initial entry and confrontation. I suspect that this may yet again point to the importance of mindset, not to mention the potential problem of having very little room in which to move.

 

[JoeSlomo]

Does this advocate tussling for the shotgun over shooting the man?

At that close range the shottie would be GONE from that dudes hands.

Surprise, aggression and shock work both ways, and it isn't that hard to disarm a dude holding his firearm with one hand. (yea, I know, mall ninja stuff, right?)

I only saw the one shotgun, so the dudes are either going to get outta dodge, or try to get the shotgun back, however, some distance could be gained to possibly draw and get a hip shot off, or to jam the shottie down the close guys throat. Like I said, it would get interesting, however, I am NOT going to get shot while lying on the ground like a "good, compliant, submissive victim".


Uh-uh. Not gonna happen.

 

[Mikhail Weiss]

At that close range the shottie would be GONE from that dudes hands.

Surprise, aggression and shock work both ways, and it isn't that hard to disarm a dude holding his firearm with one hand. (yea, I know, mall ninja stuff, right?)

I only saw the one shotgun, so the dudes are either going to get outta dodge, or try to get the shotgun back, however, some distance could be gained to possibly draw and get a hip shot off, or to jam the shottie down the close guys throat. Like I said, it would get interesting, however, I am NOT going to get shot while lying on the ground like a "good, compliant, submissive victim".

Uh-uh. Not gonna happen.

I agree that surprise, aggression and shock work both ways, and that the unarmed clerk had opportunities for aggressive or evasive action, but I also imagine that, had the clerk been armed, shooting the shotgun-wielding man when he's both drawing the shotgun from his pants and stepping behind the counter may have been a productive course of action, and one that would not have put the clerk into a potential wrestling match with two opponents.

That seems to be the central part of my question, the possibilities for action had the clerk been armed.

Thank you for your input.

 

[JoeSlomo]

I also imagine that, had the clerk been armed, shooting the shotgun-wielding man when he's both drawing the shotgun from his pants and stepping behind the counter may have been a productive course of action, and one that would not have put the clerk into a potential wrestling match with two opponents.

I'd agree with that.

There was a post where an off duty officer saw a criminal walking into a store, and he used an aisle to mask his movement while he drew his pistol. By the time the criminal got about 5 feet in the store, the officer had the drop on him, and the criminal beat feet out the door. The same technique could have worked in this video imo...

 

[wishin]

I think most THRers can't properly relate to the store clerk, as he's not generally representative of our thinking and gun philosophy. Even at that, my many years on this earth tell me that human nature is such that the average person is not mentally prepared to deal with such an emergency involving firearms and violence. "It won't happen to me, and if it does why would they shoot me if I cooperate", is their thinking. On the other hand, most if not all of us here are carrying because we do expect it could happen to us, and are willing to take action at the first opportunity to do so. Not too long ago it was reported that a convenience store employee was one of the highest risk jobs in this country. I wouldn't think of working that job without CC.

 

[Mikhail Weiss]

I think most THRers can't properly relate to the store clerk, as he's not generally representative of our thinking and gun philosophy. Even at that, my many years on this earth tell me that human nature is such that the average person is not mentally prepared to deal with such an emergency involving firearms and violence. "It won't happen to me, and if it does why would they shoot me if I cooperate", is their thinking.

I think you're right. When I worked in such a business, I was the only one in a group of a couple dozen who carried. Some acknowledged it as a good idea, but not for them. Others thought it was a bad idea, one that could only escalate the chances for violence.

Not too long ago it was reported that a convenience store employee was one of the highest risk jobs in this country.

It used to be considered the fifth most dangerous occupation in the U.S. Don't know if it still is. Many people I spoke with while working in the business seemed genuinely astonished that I'd been threatened with violence and robbery on multiple occasions, as if the niceness of the neighborhood alone should prevent such things, especially in what was recently described as the 7th safest city in the U.S.

On the [other] hand, most if not all of us here are carrying because we do expect it could happen to us, and are willing to take action at the first opportunity to do so... I wouldn't think of working that job without CC.

This is what I find peculiar about a former co-worker who's still in the business. He likes guns. Owns a couple of very nice ones. But he doesn't carry on the job despite his acknowledgement that, yes, bad things can happen quickly.

Thus my interest in what others see when they look at the video, and my interest in what others might do, and when. When I look at it, I see a number of bad signs well before the guy comes around the counter and draws the shotgun. I suspect that many others, here, see those things as well. I also suspect that many in the business would also recognize that something is amiss, but would choose to ignore it for the very reason you stated: “the average person is not mentally prepared to deal with such an emergency.”

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[YammyMonkey]

Tough to guess the layout of the area behind the counter that's out of view of the camera. Is there an exit directly under the camera or is the only way out right next to the cash register?

Our victim had multiple, long-duration openings to do something. Instead, he decided to get down on his belly & get shot. Loss of mobility is a big line in the sand for me. As long as I can move, even a little, I have options. As soon as I'm face down or otherwise off my feet my mobility is done for.

One-handed shotgun time would have been the perfect (all things considered) opening for the clerk. Right after the cash register came open the two attackers weren't on top of him or even paying much attention to him for a few seconds.

There was a lot of back & forth movement from the guy in white- not very coordinated & that could have provided an opportunity because you know the guy in black was target fixated on the register & probably would have initially associated movement with his buddy, not the victim.

In the end though, it's much easier to look through the surveilance camera & criticize & what-if while knowing the consequences of doing nothing than it is to be on film not knowing if doing nothing is what will get you out alive.

THINK about this stuff before it happens. Role play it out & always be looking for options.

 

[Mike J]

Thanks for posting this Mikhail it has made me think.

 

[rrruuunnn]

When I was at the restaurant. I would try to make a habit of turning my head to the front window whenever I wasn't doing anything. I made a decision that I'd rather see it coming than bury my head. And try not to be bashful at looking at someone. May seem rude to stare. I'm not sure how long is rude. I noticed things that I normally would have missed. Like a guy wearing a hoodie when it's too hot. I read (book is "The Concealed Handgun Manual") that BG will give themselves away through body language. Like bending down and looking side to side.

 

[Wheeler44]

Panic sets in with cognizant disonnance...When what you see doesn't jibe with what you think.....In other words.....The clerk wasn't ready to accept that he was being robbed..until it was too late.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Seeing the door getting wedged was the first real clue something wasn't right. Same thing happened in the surveillance video of the robbery of the pharmacy (in Florida IIRC) where the pharmacist got in trouble for shooting the downed robber again, thought that pair used a short board for the purpose,

I'm guessing that since the door in question in this video opened out, the robbers were wedging it open to prevent an electronic security lock from being engaged while they were still inside. Anyone have any other possible explanations for this bit of behavior?

lpl

 

[Webbj0219]

I thought that they locked the door, but wedging it open makes more sense. Thanx Lee. Thats what would have sent me to code orange. Customers rigging something with the door on the way in. I would hope that that would put me on high enough of an alert that I would be ready to draw when the guy pulled the shotty out of his pants.

I worked at an AM/PM for a while. I wanted to carry while at work there, but the store owner said it wasnt neccisary. He then goes to the back room and comes out with a 12 gauge, he keeps back there. I was thinking though if a robbery did happen, what if he wasnt able to get to the back room? Another guy there told me that criminal psychologists say that a gas station robber will usually decide before hand wether he is going to shoot the clerk, regardless of how the robbery goes down, his mind would already be made up to shoot. This is a good example of that. Also there was a shooting at a Reno computer store like this when I lived there. The robber got all the money and some computer equipment. And as he is going out the door, he turns around and fires two shots, blowing out both of the clerks kneecaps. Then He runs away.

 

[SOUTHPAW]

I can't see the vid on my phone for some reason but, if I was armed...

As soon as I saw the shotgun I'd draw my weapon and fire.

 

[DogStar]

And you'd probably get a belly full of buckshot for your trouble.

Drawing your (concealed) weapon on someone who's already brandishing theirs requires waiting for the perfect moment when they're distracted enough to give you the 2-5 seconds you need.

 

[Mikhail Weiss]

YammyMonkey:
Tough to guess the layout of the area behind the counter that's out of view of the camera. Is there an exit directly under the camera or is the only way out right next to the cash register?

I'm not certain of the store's layout, but that the clerk doesn't flee at the first opportunity may indicate that he is, indeed, boxed in (or simply immobilized by surprise or fear). It's not uncommon to find single points of entry and exit behind counters. I also suspect that, though many may choose to arm themselves for their day-to-day activities, whether working in convenience stores or not, many might well delay drawing when confronted like this unless they have very deliberately considered beforehand what their triggers will be. Deciding during the moment that seeing a gun should trigger the automatic response of drawing your own is too late. Nonetheless, it seems instructive to notice that additional opportunities to do so arise after the bad guy has already drawn his shotgun.

THINK about this stuff before it happens. Role play it out & always be looking for options.

That others do not, especially in such a business, remains a source of unceasing amazement.

Thanks for commenting.

 

[Mikhail Weiss]

MikeJ:
Thanks for posting this Mikhail it has made me think.

You're welcome. It made me angry. (What happened, not the posting. Angry because the, “cooperate and you'll be okay,” advice persists when there is no way of knowing which end of the violent crime statistical pool you'll end up in until the event is over. Better, I think, to make the other guy worry about what happens to him.)

Meanwhile, happy to have elicited thought.

 

[Mikhail Weiss]

rrruuunnn:
When I was at the restaurant. I would try to make a habit of turning my head to the front window whenever I wasn't doing anything. I made a decision that I'd rather see it coming than bury my head.

Good idea. I used to tell people, Keep your head up and your eyes moving. If you don't look like you're paying attention, you're inviting trouble. And if you see trouble coming, you don't have to stick around for it.

And try not to be bashful at looking at someone. May seem rude to stare.

I think that's a natural tendency that many possess, which is to not stare. We're taught that it's rude. But a failure to observe provides advantage to the unseen, and none to the one who should be doing the seeing.

Merely looking at people and acknowledging them deters a great many opportunistic thieves and thugs, but the more determined ones require more determined countermeasures. Unfortunately, the clerk possessed unequal means with which to deal with his shooter.

I noticed things that I normally would have missed. Like a guy wearing a hoodie when it's too hot... that BG will give themselves away through body language. Like bending down and looking side to side.

In every case I've seen, the bad guys absolutely telegraphed their intentions. In some cases it wasn't because they were stupid and craftless, but because they didn't care.

Thanks for the comments.

 

[Mikhail Weiss]

Lee Lapin:
Seeing the door getting wedged was the first real clue something wasn't right.

I wondered if anyone else noticed that. Yes, some doors are equipped with automatic locks, but others, lacking such locks, nonetheless possess manual ones that can be activated with levers at the top and bottom of the door. My first thought was that the fellow might be locking a door to prevent their work from being disturbed, but the door appears to open easily, and without further manipulation, when they leave.

Whatever the case, the action does seem the first clear one that the assailants aren't there for casual shopping.

Perhaps the pharmacy case you refer to was the Ersland one that also occurred here, May 19, 2009?

 

[Mikhail Weiss]

Webbj0219:
I thought that they locked the door, but wedging it open makes more sense. Thanx Lee. Thats what would have sent me to code orange. Customers rigging something with the door on the way in. I would hope that that would put me on high enough of an alert that I would be ready to draw when the guy pulled the shotty out of his pants.

That was my thought as well. People do all manner of strange things in such places, but fooling with the doors like that, at least in my experience, was never one of them. I'd also like to think that one might be sufficiently on alert as a result of such action that they wouldn't have to wait to see what shotgun man drew from his pants, but would instead notice that he moves readily not merely to the counter, but to in fact get behind it. That plus the coordinated movement of the other guy, both of them with hoods remaining over their heads, seems too bad a collection of signs to ignore.

I worked at an AM/PM for a while. I wanted to carry while at work there, but the store owner said it wasnt neccisary. He then goes to the back room and comes out with a 12 gauge, he keeps back there. I was thinking though if a robbery did happen, what if he wasnt able to get to the back room?

He'd be mostly out of luck. The point of having a firearm for such occasions would be for its handiness. Not having one at hand the instant it's needed is almost exactly the same as not having one at all. It seems that when you need one, you're likely to really need one, and fast.

Thanks for your observations.

 

[Bullnettles]

I just sent a message, with a link to that video, to the Brady Campaign, asking why he got shot when he complied. I then said your stand on guns makes no sense. We shall see if they write back and I will post what they say.

 

[SOUTHPAW]

And you'd probably get a belly full of buckshot for your trouble.

Drawing your (concealed) weapon on someone who's already brandishing theirs requires waiting for the perfect moment when they're distracted enough to give you the 2-5 seconds you need.

Obviously not if it's pointed at me...