The clerk had 0 cover. He was at the criminal's mercy. I think any of you suggesting drawing and shooting are out of your minds and would end up pin cushions. Regardless of the percent of armed robberies that end without murder/attempted murder (I don't know the number, but if I had to guess I would say > 75%), your odds of actually coming out winning in a firefight here are extraordinarily low. I'd much rather hedge my bets on the criminal just wanting some money and not wanting to kill me (I'd be quite sure he'd be willing to kill me though, if I threatened his life)
Armed Robbery Caught on Camera
- Thread starter nwilliams
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JRH6856
Member
heeler, I can't tell where you live and not everyone lives in Texas.
Might be a jury. Who's to say they will agree with you?
JRH6856
Member
And that is a matter of choice for each individual.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
I think any of you suggesting drawing and shooting are out of your minds and would end up pin cushions.
I think a little FoF with Airsoft pistols and proper protection would be beneficial as well as educational.
I'm willing to give an apparent VCA as much wiggle room as I can as long as the issue is in doubt, but when said VCA sends up the red flag, it's on, and at that point I will take advantage of any mistake he makes. Like turning away for a moment to pay attention elsewhere. The difficult part is not to telegraph your resolve nonverbally, until a sufficient opening is presented.
I know I've said it before, but EVERYONE HERE should have read and internalized Cooper's little book by now. Go to http://www.paladin-press.com/product/Principles_of_Personal_Defense/Other_Combat_Shooting and order a copy. This is the "See Spot Run" of mindset development IMHO, and for anyone who doesn't know what "See Spot Run" means, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_and_Jane
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I think a little FoF with Airsoft pistols and proper protection would be beneficial as well as educational.
I'm willing to give an apparent VCA as much wiggle room as I can as long as the issue is in doubt, but when said VCA sends up the red flag, it's on, and at that point I will take advantage of any mistake he makes. Like turning away for a moment to pay attention elsewhere. The difficult part is not to telegraph your resolve nonverbally, until a sufficient opening is presented.
I know I've said it before, but EVERYONE HERE should have read and internalized Cooper's little book by now. Go to http://www.paladin-press.com/product/Principles_of_Personal_Defense/Other_Combat_Shooting and order a copy. This is the "See Spot Run" of mindset development IMHO, and for anyone who doesn't know what "See Spot Run" means, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_and_Jane
.Loosedhorse
member
I guess, the main question then becomes, what's the red flag? If the robber is going to walk out with cash, no one hurt, and the bank is just going to file an insurance claim, why interfere?
I guess if the robbers shoot someone--anyone--in the bank, that'd be enough for most folks. Ordering people face down? Searching them?
Just another thought:
The aggressor here doesn't seem like a typical junkie. He came in prepared and demonstrated a reasonable level of competence, especially by thug standards. If I were to put myself into his shoes I'd know that I can buy concealable level IIIA armor from internet retailers for under $400. I wouldn't walk into this situation without armor.
What are the odds that cener-mass hits aren't going to stop someone like this?
Do you really want to get into a fight with a potentially armored opponent? I'd argue that if he looks squared away, you run the body armor risk.
The aggressor here doesn't seem like a typical junkie. He came in prepared and demonstrated a reasonable level of competence, especially by thug standards. If I were to put myself into his shoes I'd know that I can buy concealable level IIIA armor from internet retailers for under $400. I wouldn't walk into this situation without armor.
What are the odds that cener-mass hits aren't going to stop someone like this?
Do you really want to get into a fight with a potentially armored opponent? I'd argue that if he looks squared away, you run the body armor risk.
leadaddict
Member
I think I agree with everything in here excpet for me the issue is no longer in doubt and the red flag is up as soon as the he threatens me with a gun. Why not start watching for that mistake right away?
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
Gregaw,
Not every VCA is going to approach waving a gun from the getgo. Sometimes it takes a while (even if only a few seconds) for the situation to evolve to the point where a threat is clearly presented. Any contact with a potential VCA is a negotiation, in one sense of the word, and once the negotiation reaches the point that it involves the VCA displaying a gun, a knife or other weapon, and the threat of serious violence, then it's on at that point as far as I am concerned.
I'm not saying anyone else needs to try and model their behavior on mine, I hope that's clear. The decision to engage a VCA with gunfire is highly situational and completely individual, and should be considered carefully and frequently in advance of such a situation ever appearing. This is why so many who are far more knowledgeable than I on these matters insist on the primacy of mindset, and encourage the development of a proper mental attitude ahead of other aspects of self defense.
hth,
Fred
Not every VCA is going to approach waving a gun from the getgo. Sometimes it takes a while (even if only a few seconds) for the situation to evolve to the point where a threat is clearly presented. Any contact with a potential VCA is a negotiation, in one sense of the word, and once the negotiation reaches the point that it involves the VCA displaying a gun, a knife or other weapon, and the threat of serious violence, then it's on at that point as far as I am concerned.
I'm not saying anyone else needs to try and model their behavior on mine, I hope that's clear. The decision to engage a VCA with gunfire is highly situational and completely individual, and should be considered carefully and frequently in advance of such a situation ever appearing. This is why so many who are far more knowledgeable than I on these matters insist on the primacy of mindset, and encourage the development of a proper mental attitude ahead of other aspects of self defense.
hth,
Fred
leadaddict
Member
Yes, that helps. In the context of the video I was curious what else the perp would have needed to do to cause a "red flag" for you. But I see that your comment wasn't directly targeted at the incident in question since he came in waving the gun.
WilleRupert
Member
Billybob the cashier couldnt do much, but that gal near the door couldve gotten the drop on him!
PS-That crook had better trigger discipline than most people I see at the range.
PS-That crook had better trigger discipline than most people I see at the range.
MuleRyder
Member
It seems that at .08, the VCA turns toward the woman long enough that if the man was prepared, he could have lit him up.
JRH6856
Member
^^^Perhaps, if the man were prepared and knew when the VCA was going to turn and was anticipating the turn--which is something we all know after watching the video several times. Perhaps not if the man was in the midst of trying to comply with the VCAs instructions when the fleeting opportunity to "light him up" presented itself.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Why not at .23 as well?
Simple, because if you are the clerk getting robbed, you don't know if that glance at .08 is going to be 0.25 seconds or 2 seconds. It was well less than 2. At .23 is just as viable of a time to react as .08 because in both cases, the gunman turns away from the clerk and is no longer pointing at the clerk.
So why didn't you suggest that the clerk could have "lit him up" if he was prepared at the .23 mark? Simple. You had the benefit of being safe at home and watching this as a video where you learned that at the start of which behaviors would result in possibly adequate time to respond and not adequate time to respond. Put another way, you have the luxury of knowledge after the fact that the clerk did not have during the event.
Maybe the event at .08 was going to be long enough for even the least prepared of clerks to draw a personal weapon or draw a gun from under the counter and shoot the bad guy. Heck there might have been enough time to pull out a baseball bat and take a connecting homerun swing at the robber's head, gun arm, or gun...or maybe not.
While I realize that everyone here is amazingly dynamic in their abilities to draw from concealment and fire a carry gun at a bad guy with a very accurate debilitating shot in less than 1.5 seconds. We aren't talking about our skills. We are talking about the skills of a person who is likely not apt to see a gun range more than once or twice a year for a little bullseye shooting. The vast majority of your concealed carry folks are likely to have draws in excess of 2 seconds and maybe as long as 3.
Assuming that the store had an under the counter gun to be used by any employee during a robbery, there is a decent chance that the employee hasn't even fired the gun before, may not have fired guns more than a few times in their entire lives. It would not be surprising to see such folks miss the bad guy completely at that range.
Of course, what about the consideration of the woman "lighting up" the robber? She is also an employee at the business. If you think the clerk behind the counter had time for an armed response if well prepared, then the female employee had lots and lots of time at .28 and .31.
Good question. Going back to the potential skills of the clerk, even if he is a fairly well practiced shooter and goes to the range once a month or so, how much does he know about body armor and assessing whether or not the bad guy is wearing any?
I have watched the video several times. It does look like the robber is wearing something under his hoodie based on how the hoodie wrinkles and lays as the robber moves about. This is most visible at about .24 where you see wrinkles that look to follow the outer edge of the body armor strap going over his right shoulder. I don't think it would be a stretch to think he might be wearing a lightweight, thin IIa vest. I didn't see anything that was conclusive that he was, but I also didn't see anything conclusive that he wasn't.
The clerk behind the counter would not have had the luxury of reviewing the robber's clothing multiple times in order to assess the body armor issue. The female empoyee probably would have had the time, assuming that she knew what to be looking for. However, few folks in the general public know anything about body armor or how to recognize it under clothing.
That's an apples to oranges comparison.
Compliant victims shot (and % survivors) vs compliant victims not shot
And
Uncompliant shot (and % survivors) vs not shot
Would be much more useful.
Obviously if we acknowledge "shot" and "killed" are different things that adds dimension to our analysis. I would be strongly inclined to predict of those shot, uncompliant "victims" survive at least slightly more often.
You could compare compliant survivors vs uncompliamt survivors but that hardly takes into account things like individual skill. If you want a nice case study on individual skill changing outcomes check out Lance Thomas.
The question isn't whether the robber is more likely to shoot so much as whether resisting increases overall odds of survival. Tom Givens makes the point that the first few shots you would likely take in a robbery are quite survivable statistically but if you surrender or give up after being shot, the BG can burst your grape point blank.
Resisting (with accurate fire) is a good way to make him miss if he was going to shoot you. If he wasn't, he will learn not to bluff if he survives.
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sm
member
Post 25 by mbt2001
Mirrors my thoughts and suggestions.
In addition I feel this establishment had been cased very very well. The lady to me seems to have had the best chance to use a firearm in self defense as the gentlemen behind the counter was "owned" from the get-go.
Mirrors my thoughts and suggestions.
In addition I feel this establishment had been cased very very well. The lady to me seems to have had the best chance to use a firearm in self defense as the gentlemen behind the counter was "owned" from the get-go.
I think I've got it.
As much as I hate the idea of shooting someone I think I would start shooting at the first opportunity if someone is robbing me with a weapon like a handgun. Here's why.
The armed robber that would not shoot me looks the same as the armed robber that would shoot me. I can't tell the difference.
[strike]The armed robber that doesn't have the intent or mindset to shoot me will not shoot me when I draw because deep down they really don't want to shoot another human afterall. So I'd win that one.[/strike]Changes noted in navy.
Thanks to RTR_RTR I've adjusted my stance to include three possibilities. Also note that ideally I'd be waiting for an "opening" where the armed robber is distracted for even a fraction of a second before starting to shoot to stop the threat. Changes noted in navy.
Is this not obvious? I mean sure, most of the time the armed robber will leave without shooting you because most armed robber aren't killers or murderers. But you can't tell who will do what, because, well, you can't read their minds. So that means the only thing you can control that gives you the best chance for survival is to shoot to stop the threat at the first opportunity.
Someone, please if I am wrong, tell me why?
Edit: Sometimes armed robbers just kill you and your fellow employees for no particular reason. 3 Farmville store employees shot and killed
Edit 2: Adjustment based on input from RTR_RTR. Changes noted in navy.
As much as I hate the idea of shooting someone I think I would start shooting at the first opportunity if someone is robbing me with a weapon like a handgun. Here's why.
The armed robber that would not shoot me looks the same as the armed robber that would shoot me. I can't tell the difference.
[strike]The armed robber that doesn't have the intent or mindset to shoot me will not shoot me when I draw because deep down they really don't want to shoot another human afterall. So I'd win that one.[/strike]Changes noted in navy.
Thanks to RTR_RTR I've adjusted my stance to include three possibilities. Also note that ideally I'd be waiting for an "opening" where the armed robber is distracted for even a fraction of a second before starting to shoot to stop the threat. Changes noted in navy.
- The armed robber that doesn't have the intent or mindset to shoot me will not shoot me when I draw because deep down they really don't want to shoot another human afterall. So I'd win that one.
- The armed robber that doesn't have the intent to shoot may begin shooting at me when I draw. But my starting to shoot them first gives me a slight or better advantage to survive the encounter.
- The armed robber that would shoot me, would shoot me anyway (no matter how cooperative I was) and my starting to shoot them first gives me a slight or better advantage to survive the encounter.
Is this not obvious? I mean sure, most of the time the armed robber will leave without shooting you because most armed robber aren't killers or murderers. But you can't tell who will do what, because, well, you can't read their minds. So that means the only thing you can control that gives you the best chance for survival is to shoot to stop the threat at the first opportunity.
Someone, please if I am wrong, tell me why?
Edit: Sometimes armed robbers just kill you and your fellow employees for no particular reason. 3 Farmville store employees shot and killed
Edit 2: Adjustment based on input from RTR_RTR. Changes noted in navy.
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JRH6856
Member
I'd be more concerned with his reactions than his decisions.
parkerdude
Member
The clerk was behind the curve when he saw the perp. I'm not going to antagonize a guy with a gun for anybody's money.
Additionally, I'd be surprised if the gun-man would look away if he had been engaged with focused eye to eye contact.
Life is still stranger than fiction.
Additionally, I'd be surprised if the gun-man would look away if he had been engaged with focused eye to eye contact.
Life is still stranger than fiction.
Carl Levitian
member
Maybe I'm too cynical, but to me the robbery not only looks like an inside job, but that I have some thoughts that the woman was the robbers lookout. She's too calm, and even though she's right at the door, not once but twice she side steps deeper into the danger zone, while she keeps looking out the door.
If I were the investigating cop, I'd question her very carefully.
The whole thing looks a bit hincky, and is ringing some little yellow light on the dashboard.
If I were the investigating cop, I'd question her very carefully.
The whole thing looks a bit hincky, and is ringing some little yellow light on the dashboard.
Deaf Smith
Member
What?
The woman in that video could have capped him. Notice her hands were folded in front of her. An appendix position gun would have been lighting fast.
And several times the VCA lost track of the clerk.
Deaf
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