Arming Teachers Part II

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phorvick

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I am a teacher, and I say yes. The principal at my school was recently (April 5th) interviewed on this topic. The video report was on KSTP-tv, Minneapolis. Here is the video link:

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S7495.html?cat=1

I would encourage all of you that feel the same way, to send a note to the Education Minnesota President (she that said the concept is ridiculous). Her e-mail is:

[email protected]

Here is the letter I sent:
--
I am a teacher at Norman County East High School, and also a firearms safety instructor. Your comment on KSTP that it would be "ridiculous" to have some type of an armed presence in schools was indicitive of your naive belief that stern words are all that is needed.

You might not be aware that since the Columbine incident, law enforcement authorities have completely changed their response tactics to such events.

At Columbine there was an officer that arrived on the scene, but he waited for back-up while the rampage continued. Since then, a study has been conducted on the numerous shootings at public locations, whether restaurants, post offices, churches, or other office buildings. The common event that stopped the assaults was the introduction of firearms in the hands of trained people that wanted to stop the assaults.

Clearly, in many instances that meant the police; however, that is not always the case; many times events have stopped due to the intervention of a law abiding concealed weapons permit holder.

In small communities, where an official police response might take many many minutes, the killing time simply continues unabated until someone arrives. Certainly, having some presence in a building to meet the threat earlier would be preferred.

Had the security guards in Red Lake been armed, it is easy to speculate that at most there would have been four deaths (the grandparents, the shooter and perhaps the first security guard); the other six lives could have been saved.

Mr. Lund is not suggesting that all teachers be carrying guns, as there are issues involving training, concealability, retention that that must be considered. However, having some type of armed presence to intervene makes a great deal of sense and should not be summarily dismissed.

To say that the thought is per se ridiculous is not just naive, but I suggest dangerous as well. Safe plans can be created to meet your concerns as well as those that wish to actively protect the students.

I know that in my specific case, if I was in my locked room and an assailant was breaking down the door and entering, I would want to have some means (other than a stern "DON'T DO THAT") at hand to protect the students.

Paul Horvick
NCE Math
---
 
You make excellent points, but I'm glad you noted at the end that you're a mere math teacher and not English. "Indicitive?"

Math guys. :neener:
 
Great letter. I couldn't have said it better.

I saw this woman make her comments on the news. Lame, lame, lame....

Wake up Honey.
 
I figured we'd hear something similar to what that sheriff said on carrying in churches.
"Why anyone would want to is beyond me."
This was about a week after the church shooting/s.
 
I work special ed until I receive my full credential(probably not in this :cuss: state). Here's what I think should happen. Find out who would feel comfortable carrying, and send those people off for weapon retention training for certain, plus anything else to make the socialists feel as warm and fuzzy as they can. Once they return, those folks can now carry in a school, with the caveat that they not become involved in breaking up physical altercations like fistfights, especially at the high school level. Since I'm at an elementary school now, should I need to break up a fight, I can pull the two kids apart with no problems. At a high school, the particpants are near adult levels of strength, and a great deal of force would be needed to restrain them. Now, if the staff member restraining is armed, a firearm has been introduced into a situation where tempers are running hot and the armed person has both hands busy, which sounds horribly unsafe to me. Even though it's my idea, I would disqualify myself from carrying since I have a pretty physical job and it wouldn't be safe for me to carry at work. I would also think that HP ammunition would be mandated since overpenetration in a school is, of course, Bad. The staff should know who is armed without the students knowing, and I think a different color ID tag would suffice. At my school, all staff have to wear an ID tag with our picture. With a few colors to choose from, if a few people have purple(or whatever), it won't stand out and become a "Shoot me First!" sign. Have I forgotten anything? What do you think the greater danger would be, armed students or psychos off the street? At my level, I fear guys off the street way more than armed 4th graders, but that changes as the kids become older, obviously.
 
Hey- I'm glad you posted this! While surfing the newscasts, I saw the signoff for this report with "Packing for Protection" across the bottom of the screen. I went nuts scanning the other stations watching for the story, but none of them carried anything similar.

I agree- arm the teachers! While they're at it, I hope they don't leave the rest of us out of the party... don't disarm the citizens! This one feels like it might get some legs. I'll get on it.
 
Hey,
I've been lurking on this forum for about a year or two now, and decided to chime in on this one. I'm a huge supporter of firearms, and own several, as does my family. I'm all about the 2nd ammendment and self-defense.

With that said, I'd like to offer my opinion on this subject. First off, I haven't looked into this at ALL. So I might be out of the loop somewhat. But, to play the devil's advocate, please consider a few things. As of now, I can go get my degree at most any acccredited college in a various major and apply to a school. It's somewhat easy to get a job as a teacher with the right degree and a little looking. Now, after a little training, I can become armed in a school (if this all happens of course). So, let's say a terrorist bent on ji-had decides to do the same. He gets a degree and then becomes an armed terrorist inside our schools, where your kids go everyday or some of you work. He decides to kill as many of our nation's next generation with a couple of his 'friends' and then martyr himself. With that, our nation effectively armed a terrorist and young people's lives ended tragically.

Using that logic, wouldn't employing more policeman (with the massive amount of money that would have been put into guns/ammo/training) and always keep some policeman at schools be more effective? He's trained in CQB, maybe prior service, but at any rate he's probably been in combat. Most teachers would freak out at a school shooting and porbably couldn't even kill someone. I know pretty much all my teachers couldn't. We don't have many teachers like the people on this board. He/she (the policeman) would have constant reach of a weapon and be mentally prepared to headshot someone, should the need arise. I could go on about other things/factors/etc. but I'll try to keep it short.

Now, putting the terrorist idea aside, if we gave teachers handguns to carry, it wouldn't be hard for me and a -friend- to overtake most any teacher in our school and secure his/her weapon. Not to go into more details here (trying to wrap it up guys sorry!)

Once again putting the terrorist idea aside, what about combining the aforementioned idea and keeping a weapons cache somewhere? Perhaps several, around the school. The teachers could get their easily and take down the assaillant quickly and effectively in cooperation with policemen already on site.

Sorry if my post was sloppy or not put together well, I moved stuff around and took a lot out. Anyways, those are just some ideas I came up with while reading the posts so far, I really need to think about it more to come to a decision. Thanks for reading.

-CJ
 
With that said, I'd like to offer my opinion on this subject. First off, I haven't looked into this at ALL. So I might be out of the loop somewhat. But, to play the devil's advocate, please consider a few things. As of now, I can go get my degree at most any acccredited college in a various major and apply to a school. It's somewhat easy to get a job as a teacher with the right degree and a little looking. Now, after a little training, I can become armed in a school (if this all happens of course). So, let's say a terrorist bent on ji-had decides to do the same. He gets a degree and then becomes an armed terrorist inside our schools, where your kids go everyday or some of you work. He decides to kill as many of our nation's next generation with a couple of his 'friends' and then martyr himself. With that, our nation effectively armed a terrorist and young people's lives ended tragically.
\
Why doesn't he just get a gun and walk into the school, shooting everybody? Whouldn't hat be a lot simpler, and jsut as effective?

Using that logic, wouldn't employing more policeman (with the massive amount of money that would have been put into guns/ammo/training) and always keep some policeman at schools be more effective? He's trained in CQB, maybe prior service, but at any rate he's probably been in combat. Most teachers would freak out at a school shooting and porbably couldn't even kill someone. I know pretty much all my teachers couldn't. We don't have many teachers like the people on this board. He/she (the policeman) would have constant reach of a weapon and be mentally prepared to headshot someone, should the need arise. I could go on about other things/factors/etc. but I'll try to keep it short.
Some policemen are less well trained than civilians. Cops do not have some sort of jedi like control over their weapons, which ordinary people cannot obtain. Furthermore, if teachers do not have the guts to shoot someone, they wouldn't be carrying a gun in the first place.

Now, putting the terrorist idea aside, if we gave teachers handguns to carry, it wouldn't be hard for me and a -friend- to overtake most any teacher in our school and secure his/her weapon. Not to go into more details here (trying to wrap it up guys sorry!)
Using your logic, we shouldn't let cops carry onto school grounds either.
 
You don't get it about today's students...

I was talking with my son, who has not been out of high school that long, and is at the local state University. His opinion was that if any teachers were armed, the students would "go crazy." He means the students would be violently against armed teachers, there to protect them. They would even be against an armed school cop. I think he is right. Our typical HS or college kids these days have drunk in the Liberalism being offered in the public schools, and they are mostly very Liberal, anti-gun, kids. They are committed to being sheep. Sad! :confused:
 
Can you back your statement up with any proof? I'd like to have some verification of your claims.

By the way, my highschool is perfectly orderly.
 
Solo,

I'm not suggesting policeman are far superior to some civilians in marksmanship and training, but on the whole most are. You and a lot of people on this board might of grown up around firearms, shot them regualarly and enjoyed it. If not, pretty much all of you own a gun (or lots for most of you) and attend high quality training classes alongside FBI agents and such. The majority of teachers don't own guns, in fact a large portion of our country doesn't. Who do you think has better control over their weapon, a teacher with some NRA courses and a retention class or two, or a policeman who carries everyday, went through the academy, and seeks training on his own? Granted, their are some policeman who don't enjoy shooting, but I think the gun world under-estimates our men in blue and their capabilities. They expect everyone to be Massad Ayoob.

Using my logic, we should let policeman carry on grounds. They have gone through extensive training in retention and tactics. Here's another thing to think about: With about 6.3 million teachers in the US, let's say 1,000,000 decide to become armed. We arm them with $400 guns, and put $250 into training (not NEARLY sufficient in my opinion), plus ammo, holsters, armorer fees, etc. which would cost a gasping amount, that comes to around $700,000,000. That's a lot of money, and a very low estimate. Instead of putting all of that money to arm untrained scholars, once again, why not specialize policemen training, get them better training (maybe that jedi power over their guns? :) ) And keep them on site?

I'm not against the idea in essence, in fact, I'm for arming them somehow, but the way in what we do it is what we need to be thinking about, IMHO just handing a gun to a teacher with a small amount of training in a room full of kids that've been playing Grand Theft Auto all night and are ticked and that guy beside them isn't really the smartest thing.
 
Thunder, any teacher who wants to carry at school would be more than happy to supply their own gun and pay for their training. So that just cut your cost to zero. Worst case cost scenario, the school picks up that tab for training and the civic minded training facilities cut them a nice deal or do it as a tax write off.

I don't know if I would go so far as to say kids would revolt around armed campus police. We have them and they haven't been in many fights, they most certainly haven't been tackled and had their guns taken away. I think that is just knee jerk reactionaryism on our parts.

Now would student react differently if they knew their teacher was packing? I think so. So the key would be complete concealment. Then the question begs what do we do if a teacher gets found out? Those are the kinds of questions I would be interested in. Obviously, individuals who are interested in getting training and carry a gun at school should be allowed to do so. Some cops have to carry a gun because they have to. Their training sucks and they don't train much. Those who are serious about carrying a gun train, practice, train, and practice some more. I would never mind having that kind of person on campus. If they are a bleeding heart, liberal whine bag who believes in the art of negotiation, then they don't need to carry. Keep it voluntary and keep it simple.

I'm not suggesting policeman are far superior to some civilians in marksmanship and training, but on the whole most are.
That is a matter of opinion and since you haven't shown any type of source or statistics to back that up, it remains opinion. I would be interested in seeing a comparison of gun owning civilians to police officers and what their level of firearms proficiency is. Many gun owners own guns because they enjoy them and they enjoy shooting them. I would say just as many at least as the number of cops who are cops and enjoy shooting. Many of these private gun owners have their CCW permits and have taken some sort of gun training. Any gun training they receive can be just as good or better than what police receive. I think it is dangerous to consider police into some special class of super citizens who have the skills that we don't. Anything a cop can do shooting wise, I can do too. Actually, mainly how often we practice will determine who the better shot is. And gun retention can be taught to me just as easy as to a police officer. If a cop is a veteran and has been practicing gun retention on duty, a teacher will be able to practice the same thing.

just handing a gun to a teacher with a small amount of training in a room full of kids that've been playing Grand Theft Auto all night and are ticked and that guy beside them isn't really the smartest thing.
I am having a hard time following you there. Was it the kids that were playing GTA, was it the teacher, or was it the kids and the teacher and also who is or isn't the smartest "thing"? I work at a continuation school, so I already deal with this. The only difference between your scenario and my reality is right now the kids are armed and I am not. So if one of them is not happy about this "smart thing" and for some reason a gun is going to upset them more, I am already screwed.

You know, this idea of school shootings and what not has just got me to thinking. I might be safer than I think. If a shooter comes on campus and starts blazing away outside of my classroom, I might have pretty good odds of someone handing me a Glock and saying, "Mr. Rojo just cock it and it is ready to go." If I am really lucky maybe it will be, "Here is my AK Mr. Rojo, do you know how to take it off safe?" Long live continuation schools! :evil:
 
I was talking with my son, who has not been out of high school that long, and is at the local state University. His opinion was that if any teachers were armed, the students would "go crazy." He means the students would be violently against armed teachers, there to protect them. They would even be against an armed school cop. I think he is right. Our typical HS or college kids these days have drunk in the Liberalism being offered in the public schools, and they are mostly very Liberal, anti-gun, kids. They are committed to being sheep. Sad!

Every school in our county, and I believe most of Florida, has an armed sheriffs deputy at every school, Elementary to High School. Not one student or parent has ever complained, and we have never had a incedent which escelated because of the officer being present. And yes I work at one of the High Schools.
 
I don't know about other schools, but when I went to school (graduated last year) the officers were all armed. In fact, in my senior year a hit list got out along with a bomb threat and to top it all off they defaced a local church. Next day, all entrances had multiple police officers, car searches, bag searches, and bomb sniffing dogs.

I don't believe all teachers should be armed. However, if they so choose they should be allowed to. It's great that all our schools have police officers now :uhoh: but like at Red Lake, they will be the first ones killed. It would be a lot better if you didn't know who was armed and who was not.
 
You don't get it about today's students...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was talking with my son, who has not been out of high school that long, and is at the local state University. His opinion was that if any teachers were armed, the students would "go crazy." He means the students would be violently against armed teachers, there to protect them. They would even be against an armed school cop. I think he is right. Our typical HS or college kids these days have drunk in the Liberalism being offered in the public schools, and they are mostly very Liberal, anti-gun, kids. They are committed to being sheep. Sad!

I'm not sure that the students opinion counts for much in this decision. And they would have no idea which teacher was carrying.
 
I'm not sure that the students opinion counts for much in this decision. And they would have no idea which teacher was carrying.
Actually I am not so sure about that. I don't know about you guys, but I don't just sit there in my classroom and keep my mouth shut about what I think is right and wrong. I have no qualms "educating" my students about what I believe is correct. They know I own guns and they know I shoot guns. If you looked around the school and had to guess who was packing, I might be singled out. In fact, it wouldn't be hard at all.

The other option is to keep my mouth shut about everything in my personal life and never try and educate them about what I feel is important. Just stick to the standards and remain neutral. Well these students have had enough of looking up to neutral, spineless drones who secretly spit their foul liberal venom all under the guise of "tolerance". They need role models who stand up for what they believe and aren't afraid to voice their opinion backed up with well rationed support. They don't have to agree with me, but I will not keep my mouth shut under the guise of the "standards" or remaining impartial. That is crap.

I would think my educating them about firearms and their civil rights would be more important in the long haul than me packing a gun. Sure defending myself in a life threatening situation would be pretty important, but lets look at simple odds and statistics. Which is more likely, a school shooting or a student voting liberal because that is all he/she ever hears out of their teacher's mouths? I think I would rather combat liberalism than worrying about packing a gun. If I could effectively do both I would.
 
This school is for you:

http://www.rapereliefshelter.bc.ca/dec6/leearticle.html

The teachers couldn't carry

I've said this before. If you don't believe that a teacher with a CCW permit or CHL permit should be allowed to carry in school, then if you have a permit - TURN IT IN.

For all I know, you are an incompetent shooter and a moron. I cannot trust you in the mall or in church or on the street to do the right thing. In fact, I trust the teacher more as most of them are dedicated to a noble profession of education and probably have some smarts.

The suggestion to keep the guns in a central location is indicative of a tactical idiot who is not competent to render opinions on this issue. Having been an attacker and defender in such scenarios in FOF exercises, the locked up gun is useless.

I'm done being polite. Those who don't support teacher carry are no better than the VPC or the other Brady nazis.

I suggest you all move to the UK where guns are banned. :banghead:

I hope you never end up in a terrorist or shooter incident where folks who could stop it - couldn't because of wussy, cowardly, failures of spirit individuals like some of the opinions expressed in these threads. :cuss:
 
I would be in favor of limiting school staff to on-body, concealed carry. That is, no carry in purses, briefcases, or organizers. No open carry. If a uniformed LEO open carries, we will presume that they are using a retention holster and have been trained specifically in retention. A regular citizen (of which there are relatively few in the schools) could carry any way they can legally carry outside the school. Or, if it makes you feel better, no open carry other than uniformed LEOs.

Granted, this would make it more difficult for females (who are the overwelming marjority of public school staff) to carry. But it would virtually eliminate the somewhat legitimate concerns expressed by the bedwetters.
 
El Rojo - You have set forth some valid reasons why you might not choose to carry as a teacher. These are not, however, reasons to prohibit protective safety equipment in buildings where we require our most precious things, the seeds of our future, to be kept during most of the day most of the year.
 
GEM,

Sir, I believe your verbal attacks at me are completely uncalled for. Calling me cowardly and a moron is not at all necessary. I have said nothing to offend you, for I have only offered my opinion. If that gives you the need to instantly cut down my mental abilities and call me a coward, how big of a man does that make you? I'm not trying to start an arguement, or to insult you, but merely asking you to reread you post and think if that was the right thing to say?

My opinion is something that I have a right to have, like our right to own guns. Or the Brady campaign's right to express their opinion. This is a free country, I don't agree with Brady, but men and women have died so people like him can think freely about issues. That is my right, and telling me I'm a moron, is a right you have. See how this all comes together?

I have my opinion on the matter, like I said, I'm not against teacher carry, but sometimes compromises must be made. I hope teacher's can carry, but not all think they should (like the so-called 'nazis' you referred to), and they have a right to think that, as you have a right to think teacher's should carry. I hope you'll take this to heart, and also realize I say these things with the utmost respect for you and your character, as you are my elder. That's all I have for now.
 
Thunder,

Your hypothetical situation above regarding a terrorist infiltrating a school as an armed teacher is pretty far out there IMO. I don't mean to be offensive, but I truly believe that scenario is quite unlikely. But if a terrorist could go to the trouble to do that, why not become a police officer who is armed in school instead of a teacher? That would take less time, as most police agencies do not require a college degree.

Besides, if more than one staff member had a CCW, there would be a better chance of survival for the students if one of the CCW staff did turn out to be bent on destruction.
 
Lighten up, Thunder. He didn't call you names or insult you, even if you took it that way. The point is that we do not resrtict the rights of all due to the possibility that someone may be subjectively unqualified. Opinions don't trump rights.
 
People have the right to say what they want.

They also have the responsibility to hear that they are wrong.

I do not apologize for what might seem intemperate words. Sometimes, one has to say what has to be said. It is my hope that strong words will lead folks to re-evaluate their position. If they choose not to, then that is their problem.
 
GEM,
I agree but believing calling someone a moron will help you keep your guns? Strong words do help, but not insults. Also, you don't have to convert me, I'm already for it.Sorry if I took it harsher than it was supposed to be, but when someone calls me a moron and a coward and then says I shouldn't around guns really does strike a cord with me.

Mr. Bowman,
He did call me a moron, a coward, and said I shouldn't be around guns. How is that not an insult?

Anyways, the topical discussion is over, so I think I'll stop posting on this thread for now.
 
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