Armscor/Rock Island MAP1 FS range report

[Rittmeister]

First, read this:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=379323

The saga of my trying to locate a small-frame Tanfoglio in 9mm; finding one, and having it shoot pretty low (8") for three different shooters; and sending it to Armscor in Nevada to see what's up.

Well, Ray contacted me to tell me he had no trouble grouping just about at point of aim at 25 yards, and that they would send the pistol back to me.

I got it yesterday, and decided to experiment. One of the white-dot sight inserts had fallen out, so I blacked out the remaining two, effectively turning the sights to regular fixed iron sights. This seems to have dealt with the problem; went to the range this afternoon and was able to shoot to point of aim pretty easily. I think this gun naturally points ever so slightly low for me and I need to learn to compensate for that.

However, I think the big problem is that during my first session with the gun I was consciously lining up the dots, rather than the sights. When I did this at home, I realized that with the dots lined up straight across, the front sight was actually a bit lower than the rear. When lining up the sights themselves and ignoring the dots the gun shoots straight.

Thanks to all who offered input. Now, to hope that CDNN gets some more Mec-Gars in soon...

 

[burningsquirrels]

wierd. i woulda asked then to fix the front sight lol. try shooting it from a bean bag and aim for an orange dot and only the orange dot on a piece of paper, and see where the shots go. the nuse the wheel of misfortune and random snap caps to help troubleshoot. that is, of course, if it's not the gun... but benchrest trials can help dicide which way to go.

 

[Rittmeister]

Ray benched it when he had it at Armscor. At 25 yards, it shot straight for him off the rest. Obviously, the problem is me. The front sight is not replaceable (it's part of the slide), which was covered in the other thread... In any case, I think I just need to practice with this gun. If worst comes to worst, I'll have the rear sight (which is dovetailed) replaced with something adjustable; hopefully I can find something that isn't too ugly.

 

[burningsquirrels]

hold it up, hold your aim, and take ten seconds or more to slowly pull the trigger till it suprises you. see where that puts you. then there's the wheel of misfortune, proper grip, and random snap cap in the magazines to help you out. keep us (and me) posted!

 

[loop]

Two issues strike me right off.

First, when using a combat sight picture the front sight covers the point of aim. When using a target sight picture the target is like the dot of i over the front sight. Shooting a gun with combat sights like they are target sights will make it hit about 8 to 12 inches low at 25 yards.

Second, lighter, faster bullets hit lower. If you reload this is something you can tune to some degree. But, a 200 grain bullet out of my 1911s will hit about 3 to 4 inches low at 10 yards. A 185-grain will be way low at 10 yards.

I used to have a Glock 19 that would not hit to POA except with 147-grain bullets. Everything else shot way low.

There are some other possibilities, like grip and flinching, but I'm only referring to mechanical reasons.

 

[burningsquirrels]

that's true. what ammo did you use? not some fancy heavy or light load, is it?

with my 40, it's dead on with 180. when i started reloading i bought a little bit of 135, 155, 165, 180, 200 just for fun.... the lighter, the lower it went. in ipsc i aim just below the shoulders. with 180's it hits where i point... with the 135 or 165 it would always hit lower.

 

[hags]

First, when using a combat sight picture the front sight covers the point of aim. When using a target sight picture the target is like the dot of i over the front sight. Shooting a gun with combat sights like they are target sights will make it hit about 8 to 12 inches low at 25 yards.

What exactly is a "combat" sight?

I've never heard of this type of shooting technique. If you're covering your target with the front sight how do you know where the bullet is going to end up? I've used different aiming techniques, ie, 6 o'clock, POA etc. but I've not heard that one should cover the target with the front sight.

Front sight should be centered vertically and horizonally within the rear sight and even across the top. Target alignment should be right at the top of the front sight with this alignment maintained for POA.

If you're in a "combat" situation and you are aiming like you do at the range you've got big problems. I've been taught to use the "flash" technique where you focus on the front sight. You need to have both eyes open in a real "combat" situation.

If you're covering the target with the front sight you're just guessing.

 

[Rittmeister]

I've never heard of that either, but my level of experience is the exact opposite of vast.

I suppose now that the dots on the sights are a non-issue, I could always take a few thousandths off the front sight to bring the POI up to where I think it should be. Or, again, install an adjustable rear... decisions, decisions.

 

[hags]

The dot alignment is of no consequence while target shooting for accuracy.

They are for dark or low light level shooting. They are meant for fast acquisition in those circumstances.

If you get a set that lines up perfectly then that's a plus.