Army selects Vortex for Next Generation Squad Weapon – Fire Control Optic

[BigBL87]

Looks like a slick rig. It’s a step to progress and we need that more than ever.

Someone above griped about the price tag.

Shame on you.

Our soldiers and Marines need the very best most advanced money can buy to help save there lives and to help neautralize threats so they can complete the mission and get back to their wives and kids.

While I agree, if they were in fact paying $12,000/unit (which as I pointed out in my post isn't likely with the nature of the contract) I think it would be fair to be miffed. That would scream of a sweetheart deal or some other impropriety. As much as these optics will do, $12,000 would be a silly price to pay per unit.

 

[JCooperfan1911]

While I agree, if they were in fact paying $12,000/unit (which as I pointed out in my post isn't likely with the nature of the contract) I think it would be fair to be miffed. That would scream of a sweetheart deal or some other impropriety. As much as these optics will do, $12,000 would be a silly price to pay per unit.

These prices often come with things such as lifetime sustainment maintenance packages, spare parts, housing units, etc. etc. It’s also an incredibly advanced optic. Even the basic magnified optics the military currently uses can cost several thousand dollars and they lack the advanced electronics of this model.

Meanwhile, the Russians are only using basic optics on a fraction of their rifles, most of their soldiers still use iron sights. This optic could give us a massive advantage against them and the NGSW is ballistically superior to any AK round. The Russians also rarely use aimed semi-auto fire, instead practicing short bursts as taught in their training manuals. They are not accurate.

Our soldiers are trained to make every shot count and to fire in semi-auto only almost exclusively. Full auto is saved for guns like the SAW or M27 IAR. With these new weapons and optics, I would be shaking in my boots if I were a Russian conscript armed with an iron-sighted bullet hose Kalashnikov.

 

[LiveLife]

I think there's more to the development of NGSW/FC which I believe is competition with China.

While Russia looks to continue with full-size and intermediate cartridges, China transitioned to 5.8x42 in 1987 to replace Russian 7.62x54R and 7.62x39 cartridges.

US transitioning from 7.62x51 and 5.56x45 to 6.8x51 with hybrid case rated to 80,000 psi compared to 42,000 psi for Chinese 5.8x42 definitely shows significant push towards body armor defeating performance and to surpass longer range ballistics of 5.8x42 that improved accuracy from 2.5 MOA down to sub-MOA over the decades.

US needed to improve ability to engage targets at longer distances currently and in the future to compete/have dominance over 5.8x42 and XM157 will do that with 6.8x51 for even average Army/Marine soldiers.


6.8x51mm - 135 grain bullet with 3000+ fps from 16" barrel - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.277_Fury

Here are specs and development overview of 5.8x42mm - https://www.firearmsnews.com/editorial/chinas-58x42mm-rifle-cartridge-how-good-is-it/384452

• DBP-87 - 64 grain 2.5 MOA accuracy, 2,850 fps from 16.1", 3,050 fps from 18.2" rifle barrel and 3,181 fps from 21.9" machine-gun barrel. DBP-87 AP heat treated steel rod to penetrate 80s-era US/Russian body armor out to 400 meters.

• DVP-88/88A - 74 grain long-range heavy ball for belt-fed QJY-88 and QBU-88 DMR with 1,000 meter effective range for suppressing fire and 800 meter for point targets. Longer AP core and sharper tip to penetrate 2mm of Russian helmet steel at 800 meters. 2,985 fps from 24.4" QJY-88 GPMG and 2,920 fps from 20.4" QBU-88 DMR.

• DBP-95/95A - Addressed DBP-87 shortcomings and end-user complaints with identical ballistics to DBP-87.

• DBP-95 Sniper Round - 1.5 MOA from QBU-88 DMR, derivative of the DVP-88 heavy ball load

• DBP-10/10A - 71 grain (Higher quality steel for AP penetrator core), same DVP-88 heavy ball ballistics with improved brass alloy for the bullet jacket. 3,001 fps from 18.2" QBZ-95-1 and 3,051 fps from 24.4" QJY-88 GPMG.

• DVC-12 AP round - 84.7 grain (Tungsten penetrator) 2,881 fps from GPMG and DMR. (58% increase in armor piercing performance at 800 meters compared to the steel penetrator equipped DBP-10, and a 37% increase at 1,000 meters)

• DBU-141 sniper round - 86.2 grain sub-MOA accuracy from heavy barrel QBU-14 bolt-action sniper rifle with similar ballistics as DVC-12 AP round.

 

[Jackiesman]

Most of your questions and comments were answered/covered by the attached podcast in the OP but I will cover the highlights:

• 12:45 - XM157 will be assembled and built in Barneveld, Wisconsin

• Uses USA made lenses from different suppliers which allows "greater versatility ... and control of lens" in terms of quality control and inspection (Very few scope manufacturers source lenses from USA suppliers currently)
• Sourcing machined and molded parts from "quality" USA vendors
• Focusing on USA made as much as possible (AFAIK, to satisfy "Made in USA" requires 75%+ US made components and 50%+ for government contracts)

• 17:10 - "See through ... full-functioning display is injected" into the first focal plane so soldiers won't need to move eye from scope to display. (12:35 - When power is off, normal optics functions remain instead of a "black screen") Augmented reality mode allows soldiers to tag targets and waypoints to share with other soldiers via integrated wireless chip that allows real-time communication.

• 20:00 - Vortex is not allowed to share actual picture of display but can use "rendering" of the display to show what the soldiers will see on the display. Reticle color options are yellow, green, red and orange with size and shape options. Has "red dot" only option for CQB. 2-8x allows range option with environmental sensors that calculate bullet compensation calculations and shows illuminated aimpoint all done within 1/10th of a second. 1-8x30mm scope has integrated mount to eliminate play and save weight.

• 30:00 - Many comments to the video "claimed" heaviness of the unit without actually having handled the unit. XM157 is surprisingly "light" and weighs less than comparable 1-8x30mm scope and range finding units commercially available. 3 lasers including IR for night vision are co-aligned so only one adjustment is needed.

• 38:40 - Once rate of fulfillment to Army (And now Marines) is met upto 250K units, Vortex will release a "civilian" version of XM157.

• 40:25 - Unit has already undergone durability, water immersion, hot/freezing, shock/vibration and 10K+ mounted shooting tests and PASSED. Army tested other units from more traditional military contractors but Vortex won the contract based on test results.

• 42:50 - Uses two CR123A and battery life is several weeks based on Army mission specs.

• 46:15 - Vortex is a small business, not a traditional defense contractor and has no Washington lobbyists or retired generals on staff. XM157 is state-of-the-art that will revolutionalize war fighting of the future.

And it’s NOT American made. I thought that more American shooters would need to know that. And, only certain parts of the component are made in Japanese/German or maybe in friendly countries. Vortex is still not U.S. manufactured, only U.S.A. Based— There’s a Big Difference. I TRY to buy U.S. made. And TRY to weed out all Chinese made items as I can afford it.

 

[LiveLife]

And it’s NOT American made.

Please watch the 12:45 minute of the pocast.

"There is a lot of misinformation out there ... this uses US made lenses ... and all built here ... machined parts here ... molded parts here ... assembled and built here in Barneveld, Wisconsin"​

So XM157 is made in USA by Vortex with USA made lenses and components sourced from USA vendors to satisfy the "Made in USA" requirement.

12:45 - XM157 will be assembled and built in Barneveld, Wisconsin

• Uses USA made lenses from different suppliers which allows "greater versatility ... and control of lens" in terms of quality control and inspection (Very few scope manufacturers source lenses from USA suppliers currently)
• Sourcing machined and molded parts from "quality" USA vendors
• Focusing on USA made as much as possible (AFAIK, to satisfy "Made in USA" requires 75%+ US made components and 50%+ for government contracts)

And XM157 does not share components with existing Vortex product lines.

• 2:20 - XM157 does not share components with any of the current optics offerings from Vortex as it is a brand new design from ground up.

 

[LiveLife]

First hand review of XM157 (At 6:25 minute of video "... using US made ... glass")

 

[entropy]

I find it interesting that since the announcement that Vortex would be a supplier of optics for the U.S. military, the MSRP for some Vortex LPVOs (i.e., Strike Eagle) went up about $150 or more.

Glad I got my 1-8 Strike Eagle before the price hike.

And it’s NOT American made. I thought that more American shooters would need to know that. And, only certain parts of the component are made in Japanese/German or maybe in friendly countries. Vortex is still not U.S. manufactured, only U.S.A. Based— There’s a Big Difference. I TRY to buy U.S. made. And TRY to weed out all Chinese made items as I can afford it.

Get the facts before you go off half-cocked. Watch the cited videos. BTW, Japanese glass is very good quality, German glass is the best in the world. Those would be good things to have in any scope.
I suggest you delve into how much of your Ford, Chevy, or Dodge, or Harley Davidson or Indian cycle, is made in the US. You might just want to start walking, but be sure your boots were made in the US.
Sadly, it's a global economy, and while US designed chips and software in Chinese military hardware isn't a good thing (blame the "open source" tech types that make them) overall there has always been international trade, and at least here, the freedom to buy what you want. But screaming the sky is falling without knowing the facts does no one any good, least of all yourself.

 

[12Bravo20]

Get the facts before you go off half-cocked. Watch the cited videos. BTW, Japanese glass is very good quality, German glass is the best in the world. Those would be good things to have in any scope.
I suggest you delve into how much of your Ford, Chevy, or Dodge, or Harley Davidson or Indian cycle, is made in the US. You might just want to start walking, but be sure your boots were made in the US.
Sadly, it's a global economy, and while US designed chips and software in Chinese military hardware isn't a good thing (blame the "open source" tech types that make them) overall there has always been international trade, and at least here, the freedom to buy what you want. But screaming the sky is falling without knowing the facts does no one any good, least of all yourself.

Yes Japanese glass is good and German glass is even better.

Years ago I had someone giving me trouble about my Jap bike, a Yamaha V Star. Little did he know that V Star is actually an American company (owned by Yamaha). I then proceeded to point out all of the Japanese and Chinese parts on his Harley along with all of the American made parts on my V Star.

Another thing that I find funny is how people complain about and boycott companies due to where their products are made. But they sure don't have problem using their Chinese made computers, tablets, or smart phones to post their complaints.

These prices often come with things such as lifetime sustainment maintenance packages, spare parts, housing units, etc. etc. It’s also an incredibly advanced optic. Even the basic magnified optics the military currently uses can cost several thousand dollars and they lack the advanced electronics of this model.

Yes most military contract costs do include technical support, spare parts, and warranty work for the life of the contract.

 

[Jackiesman]

Many electronic components/equipment is made in South Korea (Samsung), Taiwan, Japan. LG is another that I can think of at the moment. Enough that (with careful selection) you can avoid purchasing Chinese made items. That applies to MANY things. And many common items may be identified as an American product, but really aren’t. Just off hand a common item like Jif peanut butter fits that category. It’s known as an American company but (I believe) it’s made in China. I switched to Skippy, made in Kentucky by Americans.
So just to be sure of what I am buying I TRY to check things out, and buy American or American friend/ally products. I only buy a Chinese product if nothing else is available, and I need the item.

 

[Peakbagger46]

Assembled in Wisconsin doesn’t mean the chips and/or glass isn’t made overseas.

I may be biased after two negative experiences with Vortex products in the past. Their customer service is very good, but on the battlefield that isn’t that important, I think.

Same experience here, I’ve owned two mid range (Diamondback HD and a Viper LPVO) Vortex scopes that were broken out of the box and had to be returned (and the only Vortex scopes I’ve owned!) Sure hope what our military selected is way better.

VIP service isn’t worth squat if something fails in the field.

 

[LiveLife]

Sure hope what our military selected is way better

From post #30 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/army-selects-vortex-for-next-generation-squad-weapon-–-fire-control-optic.904777/page-2#post-12300194

Please watch the 12:45 minute of the pocast.

"There is a lot of misinformation out there ... this uses US made lenses ... and all built here ... machined parts here ... molded parts here ... assembled and built here in Barneveld, Wisconsin"
​

... XM157 does not share components with existing Vortex product lines.​

 

[shafter]

Good questions.
What happens when tech fails? People asked that about regular optics all the time and have for decades. Optics tend to go down less often than the actual guns they are mounted on, so until we get 100% reliable guns...

Excellent point. I've yet to see an optic fail in the field or during training (Aimpoint, Eotech, decent scopes etc) yet I've seen the ARs they were mounted on fail all the time.

 

[The_Quartermaster]

I am actually surprised, I thought Vortex was another China-made reseller. Of course, that exposure is part of why those military contracts are so valuable.

Their bottom tier is Chinesium, mid is Philippines and high is Japan. Primary Arms does the same thing with their brand of optics as well.

 

[Jonesy814]

During the Iraq war there was an urban battle, maybe Fallujah, where it was found that an unusually high number of bad guys had died of head shots. Someone got to thinking there had been some executing going on. An investigation revealed that the cause was a large number of American troops were using ACOG’s. This was one of the factors that led to the Army looking into an optic for the individual infantryman