Asking for your learned advice

[BigDinVT]

I've been reloading for about a year so still pretty new to the game. I'm looking for some experienced advice.

I don't know about anyone else but I don't find a lot of load data for Grendel -- and even less using CFE 223. I've been working on a load for Grendel 6.5, Hornady 123 gr SST and using Hodgdon CFE 223 powder (no crimp). I'm working off of the tables printed in "6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbook Volume 2" and some info I found on the interwebs. Barrel Length is 18". The rifle is one of those dreaded "weapons of war" (also known as a "scary black", direct impingement action or modern sporting rifle). Brass is once fired Prvi Partizan; primer is CCI #250 (PPU uses large primers in their assembled Grendel cartridges).

I assembled 3 each of three different loads and chrono'd them. Here's what I ended up with:

27.5 gr; fps 2211 + 2189 + 2225 = avg 2208 fps
29.0 gr; fps 2331 + 2343 + 2347 = avg 2340 fps
31.1 gr; fps 2544 + 2534 + 2530 = avg 2536 fps

There are a few loads in "The Grendel Reloading Handbook Vol 2" using 123 gr bullets in an 18" barrel with different powders. They all have a velocities ranging from 2450 to 2537 so the 31.1 gr velocity average of 2536 fps doesn't appear to be out of bounds for a safe load. I had marked the casings with their respective loads, shot them in order and recovered each casing after firing. None of them show signs of overpressure.

I want to assemble 50 rounds. I'm leaning towards using 31.1 gr (this, by the way, is listed as the max charge for 123 gr SST & CFE 223 according to the handbook).

None of the three (big fat) manuals I have - Lee 2nd ed., Speer #14 or Lyman 49 ed.- have loads for the Grendel nor have I found CFE 223 in any of them.

Before I start cranking out ammunition, I'm asking for your trusted opinions.

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[RandyP]

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?3861-6.5-Grendel-Preferred-Loads&

These good folks might have some first hand info for you?

 

[BigDinVT]

Thank you. I am aware of that forum and just registered so I can post my question there.

However I know the folks at this website have a wealth of experience in general and would like to hear from this group as well.

After all I look at the question as more a generalization regarding max loads.

 

[RandyP]

I should note that my 7 years reloading experience is limited to 'mid' range product. I don't have a chronograph or a place to use one if I did, and 'sometimes' the 1st sign of an over-pressure is a Kaboom, which I would prefer to avoid.

I'm sure others who venture into the max realm will chime in, but since different calibers/powder combos react differently , I hoped the Grendel forum would be a huge wealth of info for you.

 

[Airgead]

Lyman 50th and Nosler 8th both have load data for 6.5 Grendel. However neither of them list CFE223 as a powder. Hodgdon also doesn't list any load data for 6.5 Grendel + CFE223 and they're the maker of the powder. Is there some reason you're trying to force CF223 into your recipies rather than using the known-load powders? It seems as if you'd get better advice and more accurate loads using well-tested powders.

 

[243winxb]

Load for accuracy.

2536 fps doesn't appear to be out of bounds for a safe load.

What bothers me is no mention of accuracy? Only wanting maximum velocity. Then saying matching velocity some how, gives an indication of pressure. Like here. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=496271

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[Andrew Leigh]

Your top load appears to be overpressure.

29.4gr would be a better load option based on QL but I do not have your COL or Case capacity so am using defaults.

You are only burning 95.2% of your powder so there are better powder options.

 

[Hondo 60]

If bullet & powder mfgs don't list data, you're probably barkin' up the wrong tree.

There's a reason no data is available.
This may not be a good match.

My suggestion is to email or call Hodgdon.
Calling is probably the better idea, they can be slow to non-existent in returning emails.

Please stay safe

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I was thinking the same as "243winxb" , why no mention at accuracy? When I work up loads I'm looking for the most accurate combination of powder and bullet I can find. I can not tell you which I think you should load 50 rounds of since you didn't tell us which was most accurate.

The fastest load in the world is useless unless you hit what you are shooting at.

I agree, if the powder company doesn't list a powder for a cartridge it probably doesn't work well for that application.

 

[BigDinVT]

Thanks to all who posted.

CFE223 is listed in the Grendel reloading manual I mentioned in my original post. Unfortunately that's the only reference I have that lists any Grendel loads. It was also the only reference I had with me when I picked up the powder. CFE223 should also work in the other two calibers I want to reload, .223 and .308 (Hodgdon does have information on those calibers). Looks like a new reloading manual or two might be in my future. I'll give Hodgdon a call.

I did register for the 65Grendel forum but they haven't approved my account yet. I can't post to their forum until that happens. I've rummaged through the various topics on their site but didn't find anything that jumped out at me for this powder. I DID find a few references to CFE223 on the 65Grendel forum and some loads were heavier than my max.

COL was 2.260, the SAAMI max len.

A higher velocity should result in better accuracy at greater distances. I'm not all that accurate a shooter to begin with but I hope to get there. The groups at 100 yds were nothing spectacular but all seemed to be around 1 MOA.

I saw none of the overpressure signs mentioned by 243winxb even with the highest load.

Seems that Andrew Leigh's suggestion to back off to ~29.4 grains is sound judgement. I will load a small quantity at that charge and see how it goes.

Thanks again all.

 

[David4516]

This thread should be interesting. I just got a 6.5 complete upper, and am working on building a lower to go with it. So if all goes we'll I'll start reloading Grendel soon myself...

I have found data on the Hodgdgon website for CFE223:

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

2536 fps sounds pretty fast to me for an 18 inch barrel. Again I don't have any first hand experience with the cartridge yet, but my research has led me to believe that you need a 22 inch + barrel to get that kind of velocity. I think you might need to back off a little I would expect an 18 inch barrel to do maybe 2450 FPS with a 123 gr bullet...

 

[David4516]

A higher velocity should result in better accuracy at greater distances

I'm not sure this is true


I've tired CFE223 in .223 / 5.56mm and not been too impressed with it. Have you considered trying H335? I've had good luck with this powder in multiple calibers...

 

[RecoilRob]

I'm not sure this is true

Right! Higher velocity should reduce time of flight slightly but more helpful is the reduction of bullet drop which makes range estimation easier. So the faster load 'might' offer better hit probability at extreme ranges but it's not because it's more intrinsically accurate. I know...it's a matter of semantics, cause if you hit with one and not the other...it's more accurate!

Once you get your loading figured out some accuracy testing will show what the gun likes to shoot, and if one slower load groups significantly tighter than a faster one it's likely to group better at distance even with the greater drop factored in.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Lyman is reporting H335 as the potentially most accurate powder in the 6.5 Grendel with all but one bullet they listed. That is a powder I would want to try.

 

[BigDinVT]

I'm at the bottom of a lb of H335 but I wasn't getting consistent velocities out of it. With one test set of 20 rds 5.56 there was as much as a 137 fps difference between min and max (also tested in .308 and 30/30 with similar variances - I don't have my data with me at the moment).

I realize that it is more likely my inexperience in reloading but it did kind of shy me away from H335.

@David4516 and @ArchAngelCD, thank you for the advice. It might be to my benefit to revisit that powder (there's certainly more data on it).

 

[David4516]

BigDinVT, what kind of powder measure are you using? I wonder if that could be part of your H335 problem? Again I don't know if the Grendel will like it but my .223 and my .30-30 love it. Was one of the few powders I've tired that gave me both good velocity and good accuracy (seems like it's usually just one or the other).

I don't have my chornograph data handy but my last test with .223 and H335 gave me pretty consistent velocity. I was shooting I think 5 round test groups and getting about 15 fps spread from lowest to highest velocity. This was with lake city brass of unknown origin, CCI 41 "mil spec" primers, and 53gr V-Max bullets.

I'm hoping my own 6.5 will like H335, nice to buy one powder that works well in multiple guns.

 

[David4516]

I'm attaching a picture of my informal H335 vs CFE223 test.

Test was with a 16 inch AR-15 carbine with iron sights, at 175 yards, 5 rounds of each. Target was an IDPA target with an 8x11 piece of printer paper in the middle. I'm near sighted and this was really pushing it for me (anything beyond this range and I'd need a scope for sure), so some of the group size is because of human error not because of the rifle and/or the ammo...

Still, excluding the one flyer, the H335 group was alot tighter...

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm at the bottom of a lb of H335 but I wasn't getting consistent velocities out of it. With one test set of 20 rds 5.56 there was as much as a 137 fps difference between min and max (also tested in .308 and 30/30 with similar variances - I don't have my data with me at the moment).

I realize that it is more likely my inexperience in reloading but it did kind of shy me away from H335.

@David4516 and @ArchAngelCD, thank you for the advice. It might be to my benefit to revisit that powder (there's certainly more data on it).

Which primers are you using? While small cases like the .223 don't require a magnum primer H335 is a ball powder and usually reacts better when a magnum primer is used. That CCI #41 primer mentioned by David4516 is a magnum strength primer.

 

[BigDinVT]

@David4516 powder measuring has been an evolutionary process for me. I started with a digital scale and was using a Lee Auto-Disk Powder measure on a turret press. I immediately found that 1) the Lee Auto-disk was incredibly inaccurate, dispensing as much as a full grain (or more) over or under the desired amount and 2) the electronic scale I was using also demonstrated some inconsitancies (although not as widely as the Auto-disk). I resolved to use the Auto-disk to dispense close to the desired load, dump it into a measuring tray and 'trickle' up to the desired load by hand using the digital scale. The 5.56mm loads I mentioned in an earlier post were done this way.

I got pretty frustrated with the electronic scale and purchased a Hornady beam scale. I did what any human of the male species would do; fiddled with the scale (including the counterweight) then read the instructions - which said don't fiddle with the counterweight. I've spent many hours trying to get the scale back to correct weight (I also substituted the metal tray for a Lyman plastic tray with a built-in funnel). It seems to be pretty accurate now. Current methodology is to use primarily the beam scale and the electronic scale only as a sanity check. The 6.5mm rounds were completed this way.

Great info from your informal test.

@ArchAngelCD I don't recall which primers were used in the 5.56mm w/H335 (I do have it written down somewhere but not where I am at the moment). The primers used in the Grendel rounds were Magnum (CCI #250 because Prvi Partizan uses large primers in their factory Grendel ammo). I'm hoping I can put together some 6.5mm test rounds with the remaining H335 for this upcoming weekend.

Still waiting for some Hornady (AA stamped, small primer) brass from Alexander Arms. I already have some #450 CCI Magnum primers.

 

[Onewolf]

I shoot a Precision Firearms LBC 264 upper with 20" barrel and Lapua Scenar 123s with Lapua brass. I found that the top accuracy node was around 2475 FPS with both CFE223 and IMR 8208 XBR. Going above 2500 FPS showed signs of 'hotness' with both powders.

 

[David4516]

BigDinVT, I've had trouble with the Lee powder measures too. For a while I was using their "perfect" powder measure and it was pretty accurate. However it liked to leak powder all over the darn place. I ended up with more H335 on the floor than in the brass :banghead:

I bought an RCBS uniflow and it was better (accurate and no leaking), but didn't really work well on my turret press. I had an adapter that lets you put the uniflow on top of the Lee "powder through" dies (actually used a similar adapter for the Lee perfect measure). The uniflow is heavy though and once it starts rotation on the turret it's got some momentum, to the point that the turret would "overshoot" and spin right past the point where it should stop.

http://store.gun-guides.com/Perfect-Adapters_c_12.html

I decided, reluctantly, to try another plastic powder measure. Went with the new Lee auto drum. I'm still working out the bugs with it but so far it's better than anything else I've tired. No leaks, it's accurate, and works great on the turret. So far everything I've loaded on it (just different .223 loads really) has shot sub MOA

As for the scale, I use your same method but in reverse. I do everything on the digital scale but then verify it with the beam scale just to be safe.

 

[RandyP]

I infer that you are looking to become a 1000yard bullseye competition shooter?

If so I would guess that a difference of 150fps in the ammo could create issues.

Other than those who are accomplished 1000 yard shooters - I wonder out loud if most of us would possess the skills to be able to tell the difference and isolate the bullet speed as being the cause of 'accuracy' problems. There are just too many other variables involved IMHO.

I have trained for over 50 years to maintain MOD (Minute of Dead) accuracy from my handguns and rifles. My days on the Army pistol team are long gone when 1 raggedy hole with an arms room .45 was possible - lol

 

[David4516]

Ok I just checked my data and my H335 loads were not a 15 fps spread like I had though, closer to a 50 fps spread. I was getting groups about 0.9 inch at 100 yards, and 3,215FPS average velocity. I think I can shrink this group down to closer to three quarters an inch if I use better quality brass (again this is all for 5.56 / .223 not for 6.5 Gren so this doesn't really answer your original question but might be useful info anyway I hope?).

I should have some Grendel specific data to share in the future but I need a few more parts first to complete my build (stock, charging handle, and scope rings, almost there need one more payday first).

 

[BigDinVT]

@Randyp, I'm not sure I'll ever end up competing at 1000 yds but I do want to push my distance out to as far as my eyes and hands will take me. I'm trying to remove as many variables as possible. Recently I've had to accept that my days of combat pistol competition are over as well but that won't stop me from trying to push my distance with rifle or enjoying a day at the range.

Neither my father nor any of my siblings, uncles, etc. were "POTG" so everything I've picked up I did it on my own. I have a 16 yo son who hopefully will be able to take advantage of what I'm learning and take up where I leave off. Already he can clear the center of a target @ 100 yds with .223 and .22 LR. I hope to be able to introduce him to reloading once he gets over his teenage disorganization. (He has shown interest.)

@David4516, hope your Grendel project works out. I enjoyed putting mine together and I think it's pretty accurate. My son was able to put three rds on a 10" steel plate at 250 yds with it (factory 120 gr PPU) and that was the first time he fired the rifle and shot at that distance.

I'm waiting on some Hornady brass from AA and will start developing a load for H335. The PPU brass seems to be working out OK but I'd like to get away from the large primers. Most data I've found uses small primers.

My son already has eyes on the Grendel so I've started another build project - an upper to lighten the load of my LR 308. Still waiting on a few parts.

Some updates: First I found that I reported the barrel length incorrectly from the start. It is a 20" - not 18" as I originally stated. That makes some of the numbers in my original post a little more reasonable.

I registered for the 65Grendel forum and have been combing their threads for info. I've found a bunch loads for CFE223; more than for H335. The folks over there seem to like CFE for Grendel. My heaviest load is still a few fractions of a grain below what some of those guys are using so I think I'm still in the "safe zone" with 31.1 CFE. Just the same I assembled 20 rds of 29.5 to see how they shoot for accuracy.

Here are some of the loads I found. Format is:
Bullet / grain and powder / Cartridge Overall Length / Barrel Len. / Velocity / forum user who posted the info.
123 A-Max / 31.1 CFE / 2.275 COL / 16bbl / 2489 fps (LRRPF52)
123 A-Max / 31.2 CFE / 2.275 COL / 16bbl / 2500 fps (LRRPF52)
123 A-Max / 31.4 CFE / 2.275 COL / 16bbl / 2520 fps (LRRPF52)
123 A-Max / 32.0 CFE / 2.275 COL / 16bbl / 50,500 psi / 2553 fps (LRRPF52)
123 A-Max / 32.0 CFE / CCI450 / 2.260 COL / 20bbl / 76°F / 2514 fps (RangerRick)
123 Nosler CC / 31.7 CFE / CCI41 or R7.5 / 20bbl Bartlein / 2550 fps
123 Nosler CC / 31.7 CFE / CCI41 or R7.5 / 24bbl Satern / 2650 fps
123 SST / 31.9 CFE / 2.255 COL / 20bbl Lilja / 2601 fps (Jakal)



I attached a pic of the Grendel in question.

 

[David4516]

That rifle looks sharp!

What stock are you using? It looks like a Luth-AR? I assume that's a Radical Arms upper?