Crushing 6.5 Grendel Cases

[BigDinVT]

I recently assembled a Grendel AR-15 style rifle, using a Radical Firearms upper.

I'm starting to regret my decision to go with the 6.5 Grendel caliber. Bullets are scarce and brass for reloading even more difficult to find. I've been able to find a small supply of Prvi Partizan (PPU) 120 gr ammo and saved the casings for reloading.

I started to work up loads using Hornady 123 gr 6.5 SST and the PPU cases. When I went to set the bullet depth the first case I tried crushed...and another...and another. Zero success in setting a bullet without crushing each of five cases.

Using a caliper I measured the ID of the case neck; the OD of the bullet; and the OD of the neck expander in the sizing die - all seemed to check out. I tried lubing the mouth of the case and the bullet. Nothing worked. The attached image shows the five cases that crushed, with the bullet still in the last one. All went in about half way between the bullet base and cannelure before crushing. I included two 'normal' cases in the pic for reference.

The cases were full-length and neck sized with a Lee sizing die. I've successfully loaded .308, 5.56 and 30-30 before - all using Lee equipment - and have never seen this problem before.

The only thing I can think of is that the PPU brass is too thin-walled for reloading. However I've found their brass for sale. How can they sell the stuff if it can't be reloaded successfully? Word would have gotten out by now.

Before I go out and spend more money on more brass to ruin, is it the die or the PPU brass? And, if it's the die (not expanding the mouth enough), what can I do about it?

Thanks in advance for any insight you can share (except "I'm an idiot for going with 6.5 Grendel").

 

[Blue68f100]

Looks like you have your die too far down and crimping the case the same time your seating the bullet.

Put in a piece of brass with your die backed way out, and seating stem. Then start screwing the body down till you feel resistance. Back off 1/2 turn. Now start seating your bullet to the desired length.

 

[Cbob]

Try backing way off on the seating die may help

 

[gotboostvr]

Did the exact same thing when I first started loading 5.56.
Back your seating die out. Waaay out, and slowly adjust till it just touches the empty case mouth, then put a bullet in the case and adjust just the seating stem till you have your desired results.

 

[cfullgraf]

If you are trying to crimp, it is not necessary even with the AR-15. Also, just becasue a bullet has a cannelure, you do not have to crimp it.

I do not crimp any ammunition used in my semi-auto rifles (AR-15, Garand, M1A)

Try chamfering the inside of the case mouth. It will help the bullet feed into the case batter.

Lubing the bullet to get it to seat is not a good idea and should not be necessary.

I use Hornady cases without issue in my 6.5 Grendel but cannot comment on the PPU cases. They may be difficult to find and other brands of cases can get expensive.

Bullets should not be difficult to find except you may not like the price. Midway has 28 different styles of 6.5mm bullets at less than 123 grains in stock at this time.

 

[Hardtarget]

I've used the Privy brass for my 7.5x55 Swiss and had no problems. You load other rifle calibers. You've got to rethink your tech. for those and bring that to the 6.5 Grendel. Its just a small thing slipping past . You'll find it.

Mark

 

[Double Naught Spy]

What they said!

Bullets are scarce and brass for reloading even more difficult to find. I've been able to find a small supply of Prvi Partizan (PPU) 120 gr ammo and saved the casings for reloading.

I have trouble believing that Grendel bullets are scarce. Lots of choices available from Midway. http://www.midwayusa.com/s?targetLo...3A1%29&Nrpp=48&Ntpc=1&Ntpr=1&Ntt=.264+bullets

Midway has brass right now, not the less expensive Hornady, but they have brass.
http://www.midwayusa.com/65-grendel/br?cid=10206

 

[Sam1911]

That problem is in no way related to the fit of the bullet or the expansion of the neck or the quality of the brass. As others said, your die has to be screwed in a bunch too far and it's trying to crimp the case mouth long before your ram has run out of travel. So it grabs the case mouth very hard and then just keeps on trucking until the shoulder buckles!

Un-thread the die body 3 turns or so, run a case up to the top of the ram's travel, and then screw the die in until you feel it just start to touch the case. Back the die off just a hair, set the lock ring, and go from there.

 

[BigDinVT]

Thanks all for your excellent advice.

I did as suggested and was able to seat bullets perfectly (after some adjustment of the seating punch).

This is the part where I'd say, yes, I was an idiot for not following the instructions that came with the die. However, after adhering to YOUR recommendations I went back to the instructions to see what I missed. The first sentence says: "Simply screw the die in until it touches the shell holder, plus an additional 1/4 turn and finger tighten the lock ring." This is the process I used that resulted in crushed cases. So much for reading instructions.

@cfullgraf - I felt the same way about lubing the bullet and/or case mouth. I thought that it would result in highly unpredictable velocities and chamber pressures. I should have said not-too-expensive brass; I've been able to find Nosler and Lapua but every place I checked (including Midway) is out of Hornady. I did order 100 Hornady cases (AA head-stamped) from Alexander Arms but I don't know if they actually had any in stock either. I have 200 of the Hornady 123 gr SST bullets so I'm OK in that respect for now.

Thanks again to all who contributed.

 

[Sam1911]

Great!

 

[cfullgraf]

Great news on getting things to work properly!!

...I went back to the instructions to see what I missed. The first sentence says: "Simply screw the die in until it touches the shell holder, plus an additional 1/4 turn and finger tighten the lock ring." This is the process I used that resulted in crushed cases. So much for reading instructions.

The above instruction is common for setting up the sizing die, not the bullet seating die.

Further on in the instruction sheet, they should talk about setting up the bullet seating die which should be similar to the advice given previously in the thread.

 

[BigDinVT]

Nope.

An image of the full instructions (as they pertain to the bullet seating die) are attached.

Read them three times. I can't find where they say screw the die down until it makes contact with the case mouth.

I did take a look at their universal instructions available from their website which do echo (for the most part) the instructions many of you provided.

It's a head-scratcher.

 

[cfullgraf]

I'd agree, it's a head scratcher. Glad you got things figured out.

 

[mstreddy]

OP, were the dies a brand new set? Or did you buy used? Maybe it's a mislabeled seating/crimp die.

 

[Walkalong]

Those are instructions for the Lee "Dead Length" seating die, which does not crimp.

For a seater with a crimp ledge built into the die body we must set it up like Sam1911 described, run it down until you fell the crimp ledge contact the case mouth, then adjust it up some so it will not contact the case if you don't want to crimp.

 

[BigDinVT]

@mstreddy the dies were brand new. The instructions were included with the dies and there is an image of the die in question both adjacent to the instructions and on the cover of the pamphlet.

Lee does make generic rifle die instructions available for download from their website. The portion of the instructions relevant to bullet seating die adjustment are similar to most of the information posted in reply to my question. However the generic instructions do not refer to the "dead length" seating die which is the topic of this discussion as mentioned by Walkalong.

Thanks to all who have helped me through this Frenchman's problem. I put together 9 cartridges; three each of three charges (a ladder?) that I plan on testing out this weekend.

@cfullgraf you mentioned you do not crimp cartridges you intend to use in autos. I'm curious as to your reasoning. Could you elaborate?

 

[Blue68f100]

You normally have better accuracy without the crimp. Only tube magazine feed require a crimp. If not done right you will buckle the cases like you were doing. Dies setup is easier not crimping. With that said, the LFCD is one that does not have a chance is buckling the brass but you can damage the bullet if over done.

I have not crimped any rifle rounds since I started 4 decades ago. Normally is not required to hold the bullet with proper neck tension.

 

[gotboostvr]

Actually, looking back on it the 5.56 cases I crushed in the same manner were done following the same Lee instructions. Caused me a bit of confusion myself at the time.

 

[mstreddy]

BigD,
I understand the instructions, but it seems you had a regular seat/crimp die and not the Dead Length seating die. Is that correct?
What I have found on Lee instructions is that they sometimes include steps/instructions for dies that may not be in the package. For example, the factory crimp die is not included in all of their sets, but many of the instruction pamphlets have those steps.

And all is OK now -- good to hear.

 

[morcey2]

Just to add to the confusion, I have a Lee dead length seating die that seems to have a crimp shoulder in it also. It's in 257 roberts and it confused the heck out of me the first time I set it up. I've used them in 30-06, 7x57, 8x57, and 223 without issue. Same setup every time with the die 1/4 turn past contact with the shell holder, then set the seated length.

Worked every time until the 257 roberts die set. So the OP isn't alone in what he was seeing.

Matt

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk

 

[longdayjake]

Funny story...

Had a customer call me swearing at me and my bullets because they were destroying his $2 per case brass. I'm of course very curious as to how a bullet would manage to do such a thing. So after I calm him down enough to ask him what the problem was he proceeds to tell me he has been reloading for 20 years and knows everything about reloading and that it's a bullet problem. Finally, after I convince him to just tell me what is happening and at what stage his brass is getting smashed I realize that he is doing this same thing. After I explain it to him he adjusts his seating die and suddenly the bullets work fine. He could not have been more apologetic. It was kinda funny.

You would be surprised how often I get phone calls about this same issue. YOU AREN'T ALONE!!!

 

[morcey2]

Doing a little more research, it appears that Lee produces two different rifle seating dies. Unfortunately, they refer to both of them as "Dead Length Seaters". There is an "Easy Adjust" version that comes with the collet die sets and the normal (crimping) one that comes with the 3-die and RGB sets. I have been using the seating die from the collet set on my other cartridges, but not for the 257. Both are described exactly the same way and both called "Easy Adjust" on their website.

Matt

 

[kwg020]

I never really got a taper crimp seating die to be consistent. If you want a crimp use a crimper die after you seat the bullet for consistency. Just to add, I was having some problems with flat based bullets, a tight neck and soft brass. It seemed the flat based bullets needed a little more space to squeeze into the neck especially if I had annealed brass. I made sure the sizer ball on the threaded stem was the right size (it was) so I then saved my soft annealed cases for boat tailed bullets. Problem solved.
kwg