ASP Baton Training

[bdjansen]

I'm interested in training to use my new ASP baton. I emailed them and they don't have any classes in the Tacoma WA area and also made it sound like they only offer them to law enforcement.

Are there other places to find training for these batons besides through ASP?

 

[john wall]

Check your local laws and make sure you can carry a club or baton. Tennessee has a program for citizens to carry them. Be VERY CAREFUL about who you get to train you. Do not think you can train yourself.

These tools are for compliance. They are to be used on limbs only. Without proper training, it is all to easy to get the baton near the neck or head. This is aggravated assault. Do not try to counter lethal force with a baton. YOU WILL LOSE.

You will need to practice regularly with it to not have it taken away and used on you.

Most folks cannot use them effectively and most trainers in my area do not know how to use them either.

I am a Certified Tactical Baton Instructor, but will not train a Private Citizen to use them. Too much liability.

 

[hso]

Don't fixate on ASP. Other baton training programs are out there and if none of them nearby will work with you take the time and commit to an Escrima school.

Do remember that you need to know your state and local laws so that you can follow them.

 

[dprice3844444]

http://www.gw-le.com/contact start here at the distributor level.check the security guard training facilities in the area,or you local pd

 

[bdjansen]

Baton carry is legal in Washington. I researched state law before I bought one.

It is a good point about police using batons for compliance. I am interested in learning to use the baton defensively. Striking an attacking limb, pushing back an attacker, etc. All the while always trying to remove myself and loved ones from the area.

But I'm sure any training would be beneficial even if I wouldn't use the baton in the same way the police do.

 

[lemaymiami]

That certified trainer is right on the money. Liability concerns are the first thing they'll have to consider. It's a different thing when you have a police department along with city, county or state behind you as a trainer. Anyone providing training in impact weapons without that backup in place (in other words training ordinary civilians) should consider the possible consequences.

I was the guy on my department that arranged and scheduled ASP training for every sworn officer and it was well worth doing. The big drawback to any impact weapon is that you're entirely too close to someone who might not like being hit with one. In police actions on the street the officer has (or will have very quickly) lots of help. Any civilian on their own won't have that and things can very easily go from bad to worse....

I'll quit preaching now....

 

[glistam]

Anyone providing training in impact weapons without that backup in place (in other words training ordinary civilians) should consider the possible consequences.

But following that logic, why even teach empty-hand martial arts? Or escrima? Or iaido? Surely the risks are the same, yet there clearly is not the same reservation about providing training to civilians

Monadnock (another baton brand) also has training courses available, many from private facilities.

 

[bdjansen]

I'm kinda surprised at the bad rap batons seem to have.

In regards to liability to an instructor, wouldn't those same risks apply to firearms instruction, or instruction in anything that could harm another person?

As far as liability to the user, you don't have the risks of a missed shot or over-penitration. There would seem to be less of a liability risk.

There is a risk of the baton being taken away and used on yourself, but again, that is also a risk to anyone with a knife, gun, cane etc.

People talk about you having to be too close with a baton, but every scary situation I've been in, the person was 3 feet away before it was apparent there was any risk. Any further range, I'm going to be making an effort to remove my self from the area.

 

[coyotehitman]

Are there other places to find training for these batons besides through ASP?

Any recognized Asp trainer could theoretically train you. I am an ASP certified trainer, but I could tell you I wouldn't ever consider training anyone except a LEO for liability reasons.

It is a good point about police using batons for compliance. I am interested in learning to use the baton defensively. Striking an attacking limb, pushing back an attacker, etc. All the while always trying to remove myself and loved ones from the area.

ASPS are strictly defensive tools. The strikes are defined, the areas to strike are defined, there are no twists on the curriculum added by trainers if it is being taught correctly.

But I'm sure any training would be beneficial even if I wouldn't use the baton in the same way the police do.

I disagree. And to use the baton contrary to the way it is designed to be used is not a good thing unless you are justified in using lethal force. ASP will go to the ends of the earth to defend their self defense system if it is applied properly. Utilize it improperly and you are asking for trouble.

I think you chose the wrong less lethal weapon. Get some OC or a Taser, you're much less likely to get yourself into trouble.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

I am a Certified Tactical Baton Instructor...........They are to be used on limbs only.

I am not sure who certified you or when you were certified, but this is an incorrect statement.

 

[bdjansen]

These tools are for compliance.

ASPS are strictly defensive tools.

So now I have two different instructors telling me different things. Using the baton for compliance? No, I don't want that. That is for the police. Unless by compliance, you mean getting an aggressor to leave me alone.

Now use as a defensive tool? You bet. If that is how ASP trains people to officially use their product, then that is what I want.

I think you chose the wrong less lethal weapon. Get some OC or a Taser, you're much less likely to get yourself into trouble.

Could you be more specific as to why you think this is the wrong weapon? I have pepper spray, but a Taser? I think that would be a worse choice. That is a tool of compliance, not defense. And more likely to get me in trouble.

The ASP baton is just a well designed, portable, stick. I'm at a loss to see what all the fuss is over it.

 

[ProShooter]

When I was in LE, I liked my ASP.....but back in the old days, I liked my PR-24 better!



These days, I get alot of questions from folks interested in getting an ASP. Its a good tool, but I recommend Sabre pepper spray instead.

 

[glistam]

bdjansen, I'm kinda with you on this matter. I carry a Monadnock baton for self-defense sometimes (when it is not convenient to carry a cane) though I confess I do not have formal ASP or other "official" training certification. I do have training in various schools of stick-fighting though, mostly as portions of broader martial arts systems like aikido and kendo.
Now, I'm not trying to pick a fight or be a jerk, but the posters who are LEOS or instructors have not addressed my point about "liability" being a paradoxical argument in light of numerous martial arts that are routinely taught, as well as defensive handgun training.

 

[coyotehitman]

the posters who are LEOS or instructors have not addressed my point about "liability" being a paradoxical argument in light of numerous martial arts that are routinely taught

But following that logic, why even teach empty-hand martial arts? Or escrima? Or iaido? Surely the risks are the same, yet there clearly is not the same reservation about providing training to civilians

Apples to oranges, so there really isn't more to address.

So now I have two different instructors telling me different things. Using the baton for compliance? No, I don't want that. That is for the police. Unless by compliance, you mean getting an aggressor to leave me alone.

The Asp training manual specifically identifies it as a defensive tool, not a compliance tool, not an offensive tool. He did not identify himself as an Asp instructor so I don't know what he trained in, but a couple of his statements conflict with what I know.

Could you be more specific as to why you think this is the wrong weapon? I have pepper spray, but a Taser? I think that would be a worse choice. That is a tool of compliance, not defense. And more likely to get me in trouble

.

It is the wrong weapon because you will not receive proper training as defined by the manufacturer, you will not show proficiency, and in the blink of an eye with a misplaced swing this non-lethal defensive tool can transform into a lethal, offensive tool. Asp will testify for a trained officer, not so with an untrained civilian. When this happens, any attorney will easily prove you negligent or worse. Not going to happen w/OC or an EMD. Now if you don't mind going to jail and/or losing everything, have at it, but I would not shoulder the risk.

The ASP baton is just a well designed, portable, stick. I'm at a loss to see what all the fuss is over it.

And this train of thought is precisely why I recommend you not carry an Asp.

 

[bdjansen]

These days, I get alot of questions from folks interested in getting an ASP. Its a good tool, but I recommend Sabre pepper spray instead.

I have pepper spray. But as I'm sure you know, it's not the solution for every situation that might arise. I'm looking to add another defensive tool.

It is the wrong weapon because you will not receive proper training as defined by the manufacturer, you will not show proficiency,

Why wont I? That is exactly what this thread is about. I'm interested in finding training. Who are you to make such arrogant statements about what I can and can't do?

and in the blink of an eye with a misplaced swing this non-lethal defensive tool can transform into a lethal, offensive tool.

So? This is a gun forum. 99% percent of what is discussed on here is about lethal tools. Knives, baseball bats, canes, ect can all be lethal. Even Tasers have caused death. I have no more interest in the welfare of an attacking person or animal then were I carrying a gun.

I'm interested in the baton because it's less lethal to my children. It can sit in my bag and pose no more threat to them then a T-Ball bat or stick in the yard. Less risk then pepper spray or a Taser.

Asp will testify for a trained officer, not so with an untrained civilian. When this happens, any attorney will easily prove you negligent or worse.

Why would I need ASP to defend me in court? I wouldn't need them to defend me if I used a gun or a 2X4 or whatever.

And this train of thought is precisely why I recommend you not carry an Asp.

I had no idea there was such an elitist ASP club. Maybe I should have bought a Monadnock.

 

[quatin]

I'm wary of "training courses". I don't see how 1-2 day seminars can teach you what you need to know. LEOs must have internal practice sessions or something afterwards. Escrima is the way to go here. There's a school in your town. It looks a little sketchy, but worth checking out.

 

[Dimis]

It is the wrong weapon because you will not receive proper training as defined by the manufacturer

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

im sorry that is the absolute worst advice ever

does ruger hold training for the 10/22
does colt hold courses for the M-4 or 1911?
how about k-bar?
the random stick you pick up in the park at night?

seriously there will always be ways to utilize a tool outside the original intent

just like improvised weapons there is no "box" to fit in for proper training

listen to people that are a bit more open minded and get trining by any baton school that seems credible whether its monadnock ASP escrima or whatever other stick classes you can find

 

[coyotehitman]

Why wont I? That is exactly what this thread is about. I'm interested in finding training. Who are you to make such arrogant statements about what I can and can't do?

BECAUSE, AS YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD MORE THAN ONCE, the program is not for civilians and I don't think you'll find anyone to train you. You are a liability to a trainer. I am me, I train the trainer, I understand what an Asp is and isn't. I teach defensive tactics, am an EMD, Asp, OC and firearms instructor, and teach CCW courses among other things. I know what I am talking about. Who are you with your "Why, why, why, but why, but why can't I be trained in using an Asp" and "a stick is a stick" mentality? If you cannot handle advice without your feelings getting hurt, do not ask for it.

Quote:
and in the blink of an eye with a misplaced swing this non-lethal defensive tool can transform into a lethal, offensive tool.

So? This is a gun forum. 99% percent of what is discussed on here is about lethal tools. Knives, baseball bats, canes, ect can all be lethal. Even Tasers have caused death.

Right....An Asp is not a lethal tool, unless you place it into the hands of a person who is an accident waiting to happen.

You watch too much TV. EMD'S do not kill.

Maybe I should have bought a Monadnock.

Perhaps, but I'm scared that you are in possession of anything lethal to be quite honest.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

im sorry that is the absolute worst advice ever

Dimis, you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Seriously. And the next quote reinforces it.

does colt hold courses for the M-4 or 1911?

Nah, not at all.

bdjansen, get Asp certified or retain a competent attorney.

Good luck finding a qualified trainer.

 

[martialartsblackbelt]

another post for Escrima training, its all the same, and not just a defensive weapon, thats how the LEOS do it, their trying to make an arrest. youre trying to fight for your life.
in the right hands an ASP can be very effective.
it is however a tool that you need to be taught how to use, and if you end up having to use it its a lot easer to explain to a DA, Judge, or jury that you have formal training and wasent some guy waiting to crack somone on the head with it.
BTW i am certified to teach, its no big deal when it comes to liability.
anyone can sue anyone for anything.

 

[coyotehitman]

not just a defensive weapon, thats how the LEOS do it

Incorrect.

BTW i am certified to teach

Certified to teach what and by whom?

 

[Bubba613]

The first trainer has it on the money. After that, it looks like the "experts" have taken over.

The baton is simply not well suited for a private citizen. Even a large number of LEOS around these parts use spray or Taser instead. Real world numbers of folks trained to protect themselves with Martial Arts is a lot less than the "Internet Warriors" here would have you believe.

 

[bdjansen]

Thanks for the advice all! Sounds like looking into Escrima or similar is my best bet.

 

[Dimis]

really i dont know what im talking about?

ive seen more training on the M4 weapons system in the hands of NON colt sanctioned organizations than what colt has ever provided

same kind of goes for EVERY weapon known to man since the days of fire and clubs

no manufacturer can train you to proficiency not a single one

it takes years if not a lifetime to master any type of combative action

im sure you believe that a katana can only be used to pierce too i assume

thinking outside the box will always be a tool in a fight

as a good friend once told me the fight will never be what YOU want it to be so adapt and overcome or die

I understand what an Asp is and isn't

its three sections of tapered metal tubes that collapse inside one another

The baton is simply not well suited for a private citizen.

yes because the club hasnt served man since the dawn of time

LEOS around these parts use spray or Taser instead.

LEOS use those because of the distance it places them from the perpetrator not because it isnt dangerous

tasers have caused casualties and even pepper sprays and mace have caused serious allergic reactions but they also place a good bit off distance between an officer and a threat
a baton does not since its bad breath usable distance puts the officer right up in the ugly face of danger

a man with a chopstick that has trained to use that chopstick for defense will be 10 times more effective than a man with a can of pepperspray that has never even popped the top

telling a person not to seek training for a weapon they plan to use is illogical and borders on stupid

If you believe its a liability fine dont train people sit on your high pedestal until the peasants revolt and knock that pedestal down

honestly thats exactly the elitist attitude that makes it so difficult for the average man to defend themselves the "you cant handle it" attitude

sorry but thats the exact opposite of why i believe in the second amendment and all forms of defense in general

Its my job to defend me and mine
police are a reactive force they do not prevent crime

 

[Dimis]

<deleted>
im sorry if you think that my opinion of training with a weapon you dont know is unrealistic

god forbid anyone actually try to be proficient

I was simply trying to point out the fact that a simple course by the manufacturer is not enough to teach you that proficiency

Im not saying to not take that course as it will add to whatever else is out there but dont rely on it solely

and also I was pointing out the arrogance of an instructor who refuses to train students because of the better than thou and you couldnt possibly achieve this and are a danger to yourself and others attitude

seriously we are talking about a stick

albeit a metal stick but a stick non the less

there are plenty of ways to utilize both lethally and non lethally and there has been a millennia of training on the use of sticks

<deleted>

 

[Sam1911]

This is getting too personal, and folks are going to start saying (more) things they shouldn't.

1) If you want to carry an ASP (or a PR-24, or a cane, club, walking stick, knife, taser, or ... hey, maybe even a GUN), you should get some training in how to properly employ it and not have it taken from you.

2) What police officers are trained to do with less-lethal weapons -- and when, and why -- is NOT the same as what Joe Citizen needs to do, is authorized to do, or can justify in court that he had to do with them. The "force continuum" is greatly truncated for the citizen engaging in self-defense. "Less-lethal" techniques and weapons have very few advantages for someone who is not a sworn LEO.

3) Whatever you choose to carry for defense, understand your state and local laws on the use of force (and deadly force, if there is a difference) and comprehend that, if you are not in a legally justifiable position to shoot and possibly kill someone, you are almost never in a position where you would be legally justified in hitting them with a blunt weapon, either. (This is the big difference between what cops are trained to do by ASP and what you could justifiably do as a citizen in a self-defense situation.)

4) IF ASP isn't going to train you it is probably because their training is largely IRRELEVANT and DANGEROUS for a citizen, as there is no justifiable use of those less-lethal techniques in situations that do not rise to the threshold of lethal force already. If you are not legally justified in hitting them on the head and killing them, you are not justified in hitting them in the arm, knee, or some other place, either. So, anything ASP might say on the stand in your defense would have no bearing on your guilt or innocence re: the affirmative defense of "self-defense."

(ETA: ASP has trained average Joe citizens in the past. Don't know if they will now.)