Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

At War on the Border (AZ) (Long, and a Maalox Alert)

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Oatka, Dec 24, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Oatka

    Oatka Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    71
    Location:
    Nevada
    Read and grit your teeth. If the Feds don't take action, there will be an explosion. No wonder they want to disarm the public.

    http://www.tucsonweekly.com/tw/2002-12-19/feat.html

    At War on the Border

    The article is too long unless I split it. Please take the time, to read the link - there are some other good links there also.

    First drug dealers, next a wave of illegal immigration, then fear of terrorists--and now the rise of vigilantism. It's just a matter of time until blood is spilled in Cochise or Santa Cruz counties.
    By Leo W. Banks

    This isn't good. Here's Glenn Spencer, chief of the private group American Border Patrol, standing on a lonesome dirt road near the Mexican border, where all his nightmares about the future of America play out, and he's stuck in a keystone moment.

    His ATV, one of the vehicles he'll use to prowl terrain like this for so-called illegal immigrants crossing into this country without proper documents, will have to stay tethered to the flatbed. So much for a nifty photo op.

    "I brought the wrong key," Spencer says, embarrassed. "It won't start."

    Oh, well. Worse things happen in the border wars every day, and besides, the ATV isn't crucial to Spencer's mission.

    But cameras and satellites are, and on this day, the 65-year-old tech-head with lots of money and a powerful anger at this human flood, demonstrates it.

    His assistant fires up a generator rigged to a satellite on a trailer behind Spencer's truck, and begins videotaping the scene. Spencer's excitement grows.

    "This is it. This is what we've demonstrated we can do." He points to the camera. "Right now, this image is being sent up to our satellite link and out onto the Internet.

    "My idea is that if people around the country can go online and watch, in real time, illegals walking right into this country, maybe they'll ask why the government doesn't stop it. What's wrong with a little competition for the [U.S.] Border Patrol, right?"

    In Spencer's view, this human traffic is overwhelming the country's health care and education systems. It is importing poverty. It allows within our borders an army whose leaders seek nothing less than the takeover by Mexico of the American Southwest.

    "Plato said only the dead have seen an end to war," he says. "I think conflict is coming."

    Ultimately, he wants to set up videotaping stations from San Diego to Texas, in the belief that outrage will brushfire around the country, forcing change.

    Until then, it's Spencer to the rescue. When he talks about why he moved to Sierra Vista this past September from Sherman Oaks, Calif., he sounds like he's leading a cavalry charge.

    "I concluded this summer that California was hopeless," he says. "The left has gotten what they want and the open borders policy is causing a meltdown there. I could either cut and run and go fishing in Idaho, or come to the belly of the beast and tackle this problem head-on."


    ON ONE POINT, Spencer is undeniably correct, if behind the times. Conflict has already arrived, and it plays out every day in the mountains, in the pastures and along the roads and trails that crisscross the border country of Cochise and Santa Cruz counties.

    Residents along this broad frontier report a skyrocketing number of illegals crossing their land, turning their daily lives into nightmares.

    Some describe living under almost wartime conditions, with high levels of stress, fear, sleeplessness and especially frustration at the inability of the Border Patrol, or any law enforcement agency, to help them.

    Ranchers say they've been howling about this for years. But no one has paid attention.

    Reporters who took up the border chaos story viewed it mainly from one angle, hammered over and over again--the sometimes deadly suffering illegals encounter in their treks across the desert.

    But now that a few ranchers, after years of frustration, have formed self-defense groups to protect themselves and their property, reporters won't leave them alone.

    Suddenly, they find ranchers interesting--but only as vigilantes, men loaded down with Skoal and ammo, so dangerous they merit a Congressional investigation.

    Both images--the harmless illegal and the out-of-control cowboy--contain some truth. But not enough. They're cartoon cutouts, easy renderings that frame a complex problem too simply.

    Stuck in the middle--angry as hell, with nowhere to turn and wary for the future--ordinary ranchers and border residents, American citizens, try to hang on amid the chaos.

    B.J. Kuykendall shares a ranch with her husband, Tommy, 34 miles north of Douglas. It has been in their family for six generations. She's not certain they'll make it to seven.

    Her voice shakes with anger as she describes some of what's happened to her.

    Illegals have chased her down the road near her home on foot, and used their vehicles to run hers off the road. On four separate occasions, they've piled boulders and debris across the road, apparently efforts to steal her truck.

    They've tried to steal her horses, too. Two months ago, Kuykendall found her dog, a mastiff, poisoned with strychnine. The animal suffered for five hours before dying a horrible death, "for the crime of barking."

    One of Kuykendall's neighbors found his dog dead, too, its throat slashed. Another has had four dogs poisoned.

    "Every day of our lives, every facet of our lives is threatened," says Kuykendall, an ER nurse. "We can't leave here for any length of time because there might be nothing left when we come back. We're afraid of losing everything if this keeps up."

    Kuykendall's neighbor, Gary McBride, tells a similar story. In a 100-day period beginning in January, he recorded 101 calls to the Border Patrol to report illegals crossing his property--not counting cell phone calls.

    "I can pretty much guarantee that tonight there'll be 40 of them, maybe a hundred, going up the road here to Highway 80. You think anybody's gonna catch them? Nope.

    "Night before last I had one hollering at the back door, trying to get in my house. It's unbelievable.

    "What burns our butts is that the Border Patrol won't let agents on the ground do their job, and that's damn sure our biggest problem. They get their asses chewed if they make too many arrests because the chiefs don't want big numbers going to the higher ups.

    "We don't lie out here. I'll tell you exactly how it is. These Border Patrol chiefs are the sorriest SOBs I've ever seen."

    Not all ranchers suffer the same predicament. Some, even those a few miles from the Kuykendalls and McBrides, are largely exempt from these problems by the grace of geography.

    Illegals generally avoid wide-open land, preferring the shelter of trees and deep canyons.

    But for those who live on heavy crossing routes, whether outside Douglas, to the west in the Huachuca Mountains, or in the Patagonias near Nogales, the story is the same: Water lines cut, cattle gates left open, pastures and canyons full of garbage and human waste.

    "They use the canyons as toilets," says Carrol Bercich, who lives near Parker Canyon Lake. "We've got three semi-loads of garbage to haul away right now."

    Ranchers also report a change in the illegals they encounter. Five years ago, a group might approach and say, "Excuse us, Señor, could we work for water or food?"

    Now, many demand food and water, demand rides and show a profound lack of respect for people and property.

    "Every fence they hit they destroy, and that was before they discovered wire cutters," says Anna Magoffin, a Douglas area rancher. "Last year was the worst. We had huge groups, but the destruction, I mean, we still haven't gotten the fences back up. Every acre of the ranch is impacted."

    McBride says their level of aggression has increased markedly.

    "They make remarks, give you the finger and won't go away," he says. "Sometimes they go into your house and you have to pull guns to get them out."

    Numerous ranchers contacted for this story wouldn't speak publicly.

    They're afraid of being branded vigilantes and targeted in a possible police investigation on the one hand. And on the other, they fear reprisal by Mexican gangs that operate drug rings and increasingly powerful and nasty people-smuggling rings.

    A few ranchers said they've received such threats and are clamming up for good.

    Arizona ranchers have always carried guns, mostly for snakes, and to put down injured animals.

    But in this siege atmosphere--with law enforcement response times ranging from 20 minutes to forget about it--ranchers now carry weapons for self-defense.

    As one said, "Before, maybe a .22 plinker. Now we carry .38s and .357s."

    [snip]
     
  2. SIC TRANSIT GLORIA MUNDI

    SIC TRANSIT GLORIA MUNDI Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    112
    Location:
    Riverside, PRK
    Hate to be mean-spirited, but what would happen if several of these "migrants" were to disappear. Would anyone notice?
     
  3. BudS

    BudS Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    39
    Location:
    AL
    Like-minded support

    It's about time we, as U.S. citizens, stand up to defend our lands and properties, as it seems our government isn't taking their role seriously. I loudly applaud those in AZ who are doing this and it should spread to every border state as well!:mad:

    What did that character say in a movie years ago? "I'm mad as hell and I'm not taking it any more!" Well, I feel the same. Arabs are crossing the border along with Hispanics, taking advantage of like skin tones. I could go on...

    Want some real hair-raising news? Go to www.sierratimes.com & read up on illegal aliens.

    No one asks me why I carry open nowadays. I also CCW, if the climate for open carry isn't conducive. I've read accounts of older folks actually being beaten up, raped & robbed by illegal aliens. And Vincente Fox expects us (U.S.) to lay down & let 'em come? Yeah, the politicians would take notice, since some "easy" votes, although illegal, would die!
     
  4. Finch

    Finch Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    317
    Location:
    Lo$t Wage$, Nevada
    Wink Wink...
    I'm with ya on that. This is getting kind of tired, and our government needs to do something about it. What is preventing middle eastern terrorist group from walking across our southern border, if millions of mexicans can do it?
     
  5. QuickDraw

    QuickDraw Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    684
    Location:
    The Great State of California (Bay Area)
    This could escalate to the first war on American soil in
    a long time.
     
  6. wingman

    wingman Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    2,185
    Location:
    texas
    U.S. considers adding legal workers from Mexico to Social Security system

    Leigh Strope, AP - 12/20/2002

    WASHINGTON - The U.S. administration is considering an agreement with Mexico that would add thousands of Mexicans working legally in the United States to the Social Security system, making them eligible for benefits.

    "This is an issue that is being explored on a technical level," White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan said Thursday. "No decisions have been made."

    Such an agreement would not be unusual. The United States already has 20 existing pacts with other countries, ranging from Canada to South Korea. The Social Security Administration pays 94,022 beneficiaries from other countries an average of 162 dollars a month, for a total of 184 million dollars a year.

    An agreement with Mexico could add 162,000 beneficiaries in the first five years, according to The Washington Post, which first reported the story in Thursday's editions, citing an anonymous House Republican aide. The total cost could be as much as 1 billion dollars a year.

    Jim Courtney, a spokesman for the Social Security Administration, said the agency had no estimates on cost or how many people would be affected.

    "There aren't numbers yet because our actuaries continue to do the research," he said. "There are no preliminary numbers. The numbers are a work in progress."

    But concern is growing on Capitol Hill that any agreement with Mexico would add a huge burden to the Social Security system, which already is facing big shortfalls in the next 15 to 20 years.

    "We are concerned about the sheer magnitude of the agreement," the House Republican aide said.

    Nearly 46 million people currently receive 372 billion dollars in Social Security benefits.
     
  7. AZTOY

    AZTOY Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    1,078
    Location:
    Fort Wainwright Alaska
    The migrants would just be food for some of the amimals. The coyotes will clean up the mess.;)
     
  8. Cal4D4

    Cal4D4 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    629
    Location:
    SoCal
    This is a problem for our leaders to get busy with. There is absolutely no reason to leave our border citizens unprotected or our job structure corrupted by this flow. That said, I doubt if there are many here who could draw down on some dirt poor campesino family. Fox and company are the ones who need to be spanked. Our boy Bush needs to stop appeasing and start leading.
     
  9. PDshooter

    PDshooter Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    151
    Location:
    Illinois (PRI)
    Being a member of Illinois Guard. I've said that we should be doing our 2 weeks A.T on the borders!:D That would be some "REAL"training!!!!!

    But it's just not P.C:mad:
    The Dems&Rep. Don't want to lose votes! From you know who! :mad:

    Shoot,Shovel,Shut-up
     
  10. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Member In Memoriam

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    3,882
    So, anybody think the new Homeland Defense Agency (or whatever it's called) is going to address this problem?

    Illegals have been part of the southwestern culture for more than a century, but they've been polite and industrious. It seems that they're now just interested in getting to the land of handouts and welfare. Pity....! :(
     
  11. nemesis

    nemesis Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    553
    Location:
    Texas, On The Border
    There is a possiblity that 30 to 40% of all the people living in this border valley are here illegally. That's out of a population of less than 1.5 million but it's still a lot.

    What you hear and what you read do not convey what is happening here. We are importing an entire class of people who do not recognize the United States of America and their alleigance is not to this nation. They care about us not one whit and they do not obey our laws. Why should they. Rob someone, shoot someone, have an uninsured accident and you need only run over the Mexican Border. You can return anytime you wish. The Border Patrol, God bless them, can't stop you.
     
  12. Huntersun

    Huntersun Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    6
    Location:
    So. East
  13. denfoote

    denfoote Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    4,622
    Location:
    Near the border of occupied Azlan and Mexico.
    Surely, you jest!! The purpose of Homeland Security is to remove rights from Americans!!
     
  14. G-Raptor

    G-Raptor Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    169
    Location:
    Southwest IL
    This will be taken seriously when a number of "immigrant" bodies start showing up in the desert. I'm not suggesting that would be an appropriate response...but, it will happen.
     
  15. ahenry

    ahenry Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    633
    Location:
    Texas
  16. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Member In Memoriam

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    3,882
    Hey, Dennis! Glad you showed up! :D

    That area's right in your back yard, so to speak. (Isn't Buckeye sort of north of Phoenix and sort of west of Wickenberg?)

    I spent some time training at Ft. Huachuca, and flew all over that area north of the border. From Sierra Vista south to the border, it was EXTREMELY desolate.

    And surely, I was jesting.... :)
     
  17. Cal4D4

    Cal4D4 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    629
    Location:
    SoCal
    With the leadership of Presidente Fox, the illegal subculture is learning to flex their legal muscle. Social security bennies, a political lobby, etc. When they learn how to fully exercise their labor rights and entitlements is when this will really get sour. Class action litigation anyone?
     
  18. Southla1

    Southla1 Member In Memoriam

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    62
    Location:
    Jeanerette, La. Near the Great Atchafalaya River B
    "Class action litigation anyone?"


    Caliber 30 litigation would work much better. Same litigation that people like Bowie, Crockett, Bonham, Travis, Houston, etc. used back in 1836. Some folks only understand this kind of litigation.
     
  19. Bottom Gun

    Bottom Gun Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    766
    Location:
    Elgin, Arizona
    My home is 15 miles from the border and the situation is rapidly deteriorating. It's fast becoming a war zone.

    It's true the attitudes of the illegals have changed. They have lost all respect for property and have become extremely rude and very aggressive toward Americans.

    I used to carry extra water jugs in my truck to share with them whenever I'd encounter them, which was rarely.
    These days, I encounter several groups daily and instead of extra water, I carry an AR with extra ammo.

    These illegals are fast approaching vermin status here. The drug runners are coming across the line at will and are armed.
    You won't see any Border Patrol around here. It's way too hot for them.
    Something bad is going to happen here real soon.
     
  20. ahenry

    ahenry Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    633
    Location:
    Texas
    Mind if I ask you were you are specifically? If you prefer not divulging that I understand, but feel free to PM or email it if you would rather do that than post it publicly...
     
  21. AZTOY

    AZTOY Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    1,078
    Location:
    Fort Wainwright Alaska
    ahenry

    I live 5 mile from the border in Arivaca AZ. I have to carry a gun all the time just to be safe. You can run into 20 to 30 illegals on the roads or in the back country. Some are nice guys ,but other will steel any thing thay can get there hands on. I have had freinds that lost there trucks ,cars and GUNS. The guy next door lost his dog from illegals. Plus my fence gets cut all the time. The border patrol is out numbered and can't stop all of them.

    So i will protected my house and my land ................
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2002
  22. Cal4D4

    Cal4D4 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    629
    Location:
    SoCal
    Southla1:

    It's the illegals that are going to sue us. The lawsuit will involve Johnny Cochran or his equiv. repping Juan Doe versus the restaurant and construction industries with the gov't tossed in to boot. Settlement will be precedent setting.
     
  23. spacemanspiff

    spacemanspiff Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    4,067
    Location:
    alaska
    if the border patrols arent doing their jobs, and citizens lives/property is endangered, why should there be any question about deadly force being used?

    how is theft of property, home invasions, etc any different along the border than it is elsewhere across the nation? why should the response be different?



    i'm still for planting landmines all along the border.
     
  24. wingman

    wingman Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    2,185
    Location:
    texas
    FAQs about Immigration and US Population Growth

    Translate



    Growth advocates say that people are needed to keep the economy moving, but what is the main cause of...

    * Traffic congestion
    * Overcrowded schools
    * Energy shortages
    * Air pollution
    * Loss of open space
    * Overburdened infrastructure
    * Wage depression
    * Deteriorating quality of life?


    ... the main cause is RAPID POPULATION GROWTH!



    • What are the components of U.S. population growth?
    Natural increases (birth minus deaths) and immigration are the two contributing factors to U.S. population growth.


    • Why should we reduce immigration?
    According to the Census Bureau figures, more than two-thirds of current and future population growth is the result of immigration. Dr. Steven Camarota, Director of Reseach for the Center for Immigration Studies, wrote in a January 2001 paper: “Immigration has become the determinate factor in population growth. The 11.2 million immigrants who indicated they arrived between 1990 and 2000 plus the 6.4 million children born to immigrants in the United States during the 1990s are equal to almost 70 percent of U.S. population growth over the last 10 years.â€

    Reducing immigration therefore is necessary to curb population growth.


    • How fast has the immigrant population grown?
    The immigrant population in the United States has nearly tripled since 1970, due to legislation passed since 1965 to increase immigration.


    • What is the impact of population growth on our environment?
    The California Department of Water Resources has forecast serious water shortages 10 years from now, due to population growth, most of which comes from immigration. Continued population growth directly threatens biodiversity and causes species extinction, loss of farmland and open space, and general degradation of environmental quality.


    • Will building more roads or schools, or improved mass transportation solve many of our problems?
    No. There are no long-term growth management plans that can cope with unlimited population growth.


    • What is the impact of rapid population growth on our public schools?
    In 1996, the U.S. Department of Education estimated that 2.6 million new students will be added to America's public schools (K-12) for this coming decade. A study by the California Department of Education of the state's public schools revealed that one student in four could not speak English well enough to understand what was going on in the classroom. The school districts of Minneapolis/ St. Paul, Nashville and North Carolina have student bodies in which respectively 80, 85 and 150 languages are spoken.


    • Does immigration only affect the border states?
    Large numbers of immigrants from many countries have settled in many Midwestern states. The Detroit Metropolitan area has one of the largest concentrations of Arabs outside the Middle East.


    • Why is it necessary to reduce immigration in order to achieve welfare and health care reform?
    Based on the March 1998 Current Population Survey conducted by the Census Bureau, the poverty rate for immigrants is 50 percent higher than that for the native-born. In 1996, welfare and Medicaid provided to elderly non-citizen legal immigrants alone cost American taxpayers more than $10 billion dollars. The high poverty rate of immigrants will increase the number of residents without health care and needing welfare, making health care and welfare reform much more difficult and expensive to address.


    • How does high immigration contribute to our Social Security problems?
    Because of the poverty rate and the large numbers of unskilled and semi-skilled immigrants entering the U.S. every year, a tremendous burden is placed on government budgets, greatly depleting the Social Security Trust Fund in the long run.


    • What is immigration's impact on American workers?
    The National Academy of Science reported in 1997 that from 1980 to 1995, 44 percent of the decline in the real wages of high school dropouts resulted from immigration. The study conducted by UC Davis Professor Norman Matloff also concludes that large numbers of older immigrant and U.S-born computer scientists are displaced by newly arrived foreign-born computer programmers.


    • What groups are most hurt economically by high levels of immigration?
    Pro-immigrant Professor Paul Ong of UCLA has said, “In terms of the adverse impact on wage and employment, the adverse impact will be most pronounced on minorities and establshed immigrants...â€
     
  25. AZTOY

    AZTOY Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    1,078
    Location:
    Fort Wainwright Alaska
    spacemanspiff
    Why because this is Arizona, not the White House. If thay were going over the White House fence deadly force would be fine!!:mad:
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page