At what distance does a handgun round hit max velocity?

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Forseti

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Does anyone know at what rough distance a handgun round hits peak velocity?

I'm sure its dependent on barrel length, bullet weight, caliber, etc,...but I was wondering if there was a rough distance from about a 4" barrel...

It can't be that velocity tapers off after clearing the barrel...can it? Doesn't it continue to accellerate for a little bit more?
 
The highest velocity is reached at the muzzle. After the projectile exits the muzzle, the forces of gravity and friction will slow it down until its initial inertia is overcome.
 
The only place I've ever seen a figure on this is in a very early Savage Arms catalog of the Lewis gun. It was claimed that gases thrusting from the muzzle and radiator accellerated a bullet some 30 to 35 feet a second. This was with the .30-06 cartridge. No distance from the muzzle was mentioned.
Since the chronographs we can obtain do not measure muzzle velocity, but instrumental velocity, we can't measure velocity until the bullet is in free flight several feet ahead of the muzzle. When the screens are placed closer, they register the speed of sound, due to the report. By the first screen, obviously, the bullet's velocity is in decline. Since it is impossible to measure velocity at the muzzle, it could be that when it frees itself from the friction of the rifling, it speeds up a slight amount. A smoothbore muzzle loader, firing an unpatched bullet, would, conversely, begin to slow at the muzzle.
Despite the fact that modern powders are progressive buring, a cartridge will attain maximum pressure at the precise instant that the bullet begins to move forward.
If you fire a bullet through an extremely long barrel, the bullet's velocity will begin to decline before the bullet leaves the muzzle. You can find the exact figures in some computer programs for internal ballistics.
A round unpatched ball will strike the ground when dropped from center of bore at the muzzle at the same time a bullet fired parallel to the ground will hit the ground, modern bullets are aerodynamic, and they consistently strike the ground after one dropped from the muzzle.
 
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Normally, the maximum bullet velocity is when the bullet exits the bore. Once that happens the pressure is gone and there is nothing that can accelerate it. The bullet then loses velocity due to air resistance, gravity pulls it down at the same rate as if it were dropped from the muzzle, and it strikes the ground if it hits nothing else first.

The reason I said "normally" is that if the powder charge is small enough and the barrel long enough, the gas pressure may be exhausted before the bullet leaves (or even reaches) the muzzle, so its maximum velocity was somewhere in the barrel.

Jim
 
As the bullet leaves the barrel there is still more air pressure behind it than in front of it- it is still accelerating for a short distance. If the pressure inside the barrel were lower than the outside then when the bullet exited the barrel you'd hear a sucking noise as air rushed in to relieve the pressure difference instead of a BANG

There are some special 'silent' cartridges which are sealed and the casing has an odd plunger sort of arrangement which seals in the gas- kicks the bullet out of the barrel. I seem to remember the Russians having something like that. I will have to check some references. I assume you ain't talkin' about wunna them.

Gunpowder burns up making hot gas byproduct, which expands to relieve pressure difference- PV=nRT... good ol' combined Charles and Boyle's gas laws for those who went to "gummint skool" and studied chemistry. Atmospheric pressure is about 14.7 pounds per square inch. Until the gas in the barrel pushes the bullet out of the way and expands into enough volume and cools to reach atmospheric pressure then it is still pushing. You've probably got a couple of inches to maybe a foot before the pressures even out and the difference in air pressure runs the other direction and starts slowing it down, farther with a rifle.
Hard to measure with all the other matter banging out of the barrel.
 
I suppose it's possible that the bullet will accelerate a little bit after it leaves the muzzle due to the still extreme pressure and speed of the gases pushing it and flowing past it (assuming enough powder in the load to create sufficient pressue all the way to the muzzle) and due to the friction of the bullet in the barrel dropping to zero. But, that acceleration would only be for a fraction of an inch if indeed it exists. After that short distance all the factors already mentioned take over. I'll bet someone has probably measured this or verified that it doesn't exist, most likely by high speed photography (Edgerton?). But, it's not commonly known if they have.

[Added]
Apple a Day and I were composing/posting at essentially the same time. I wouldn't be surprised if he is correct in his assumption of several inches, but it still isn't going to be a long distance.
 
In 9mm from a 4" barrel, the pressure at the muzzle as the bullet exits will be around 3500-5000 PSI, or about an order of magnitude less than the peak pressure. Once there is clear space around the bullet base, the pressure will push the air there over the bullet since it is resistance.

-z
 
While I most likely have no idea what I'm talking about, I will toss my 2 Rubles into the ring using my technical backround and skydiving expierence.

if F=MA, then A=F/M

A being Acceleration in distance/time
F being Force in '?"
M being Mass in weight units

P1 = V1/T1

V= 1/2 VT squared

(remember High school?)




it achieves max velocity (or rather speed) just before the resistance in front of the bullet is > the 'push' from behind. I'm no physicist (or speller) but I would have to assume that the bullet exiting the bore suddenly being relieved of the huge resistance from the barrel along with the ongiong blast rushing out of said bore will continue to accelerate the bullet for a time. This should happen not far from the bore but I am assuming there is a significant period of accereration in that short distance (it would be intresting to find out!)


As soon a pressure equalizes on either side of the bullet max speed will have been achieved and accelleration will stop as decelleration begins. Allthewhile after exiting the bore gravity will be pulling the bullet down at a constant rate (32' /sec/sec in a vaccume)..........methinks with little or no effect on acceleration.

Other than that I would have to say the bullet goes really (really) fast and I always hope to be behind them.
 
Slightly more complicated than that...

It's also possible for the bullet to stop accelerating and begin to slow before it leaves the barrel. The friction between the barrel and the bullet is significant and if the pressure is low enough, or the bore is large enough or the barrel is long enough, the friction will win and begin to slow the bullet. I suspect that a very low powered round such as the 22CB might begin to slow in as little as 6" or less of barrel.

Assuming that is not the case, then maximum velocity will occur just slightly (inches?) after the bullet exits the muzzle.

As pointed out, the barrel/bullet friction is relieved as the bullet exits, but there are still high velocity, high pressure gases jetting out of the muzzle behind the bullet.

For all practical purposes, it is generally assumed that maximum velocity is at the muzzle.
 
Well, here's the way to prove it to yourself once and for all. Now, who said that the Physics books were gospel? Seems to me, they avoid things they don't understand.
Lock a .45 acp pistol down in a Ransom Rest, pointing parallel to the ground and out over a patch of desert, where you can see the point of impact. Fire a reound with a H&G 68 bullet seated normally. Note impact point. Fire a similarly loaded round with the bullet seated backwards. Note that the flat end forward round hits the ground closer to the muzzle, thus proving that the bullet is aerodynamic when fired point end to. If you are really curious, obtain the NACA aircraft cowling outlines of 1929 from the Wright Pat Museum and compare them to Elmer Keith's 173 grain swc .38 special bullet. (Lyman 357429) Did he know what he was doing? Oh, yeah!
This is dangerous, but it resolves the debate once and for all.
We used a Florence style pyrex flask, mounted in a horizontal position with a bunsen burner under the round side of the bottom of the flask. Look through a box of new solid rubber stoppers until you find one that is a fairly tight fit in the neck from the start. Push it down into the neck until you have about 3/8" to 1/2" of bearing. Draw a line around the top of the neck position on the stopper. Then, sandpaper the topmost postion after wrapping sever wraps of tape around the bearing surface to the mark unti it will slip fit in the "bore" of the flask to the tape.
We used an old Bolex 8mm camera that took a 400 foot reel of film. (You only get to use 200', since you have to reverse the reels for the second half. Set at slow motion (64 frames per second.) Use a long cable release, a double thick sheet of plywood with a small window and a transparent section of thick lexan.
Watch the setup until the stopper begins to move and cramp down on the cable release.
Now, this is nothing like "real time", but proportionally, it is correct (who said "you can't scale nature"?) and when you have replayed the film for the umpteenth time, you will see the stopper speeds up appreciably when it exits the "bore" of the flask neck. It would help to place a sheet of cardboard behind the neck and in front with 1/2" spaced vertical lines to get a better appreciation of the differences in speed. You have a slow beginning, a faster exit and a marked accelleration.
This is dangerous, since the power of steam is nearly beyond imagination, but we did not have a tragedy using new Florence flasks and new stoppers.
And, none of this answers the original question, because a chronograph will not read muzzle velocity, but instead reads the shock wave of the report.
And, this poses the Zen question: "If nobody is present in the forest and a tree falls, does it make a crashing noise?" Answer: "No." When nobody is present, there is no phenomenon that we call "sound". It requires a receptor eardrum to convert the compressed air waves into perceptible sound, as it requires a radio receiver to convert the waves of a radio signal to audible sound when they reach your ear. (Not a precise analogy, but close enuf fer Gummint work. Again, let the skeptics rage. I have told all I know 'bout Newtonian Physics down a rifled tube.
In the final analysis, what difference does it make? It is still those little round (we hope) holes in the X ring that count. And, lotsa guys have fired millions of rounds without worrying about the physics involved. Just enjoy it.
Which, I guess, brings us back to cheating by slipping a rifle cartridge in a Lewis gun and quoting Savage. "30 to 35 feet per second accelleration past the muzzle due to impinging escaped gases."..unless somebody else can quote something different.
 
How to measure velocity at the muzzle...

Set up series of laser traps, with adequate timing measurement for breaks, with lasers and receptors, timing equipment far enough back to eliminate muzzle blast damage, etc. Lock gun down solidly to eliminate movement that would allow bullet travel outside laser trap 'read' zone.

Fire gun. Look at time differences between traps.

At that point, it would all be clear.
 
Neat idea for those whose family have left them a million dollars. However, for most of us, we are stuck with a small chronograph that will not read muzzle velocity and the major loading manuals are deficit in this area. Therefore, nothing is clear and won't be until we get to see this laser data.
 
physics ROCKS!

.........bullet areodynamics are taken into account at all phases of the fore/aft drag event
 
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Pistolsmith...

I had envisioned a multi-million dollar gov't grant, and access to all kinds of cool guns....

I would volunteer to be project bwana and test-shooter-in-chief, of course...:evil:
 
Possible exception:

A richocheting bullet fragment might actually travel at a faster velocity than did the original projectile, on account of having a lighter mass and a smaller effective cross-sectional area.

What do you think?
 
A richocheting bullet fragment might actually travel at a faster velocity than did the original projectile, on account of having a lighter mass and a smaller effective cross-sectional area.
That won't work, but you could have a case where an impact causes a small chip to spall off the back of the object hit by the bullet. Under just the right circumstances, the chip could move faster than the bullet was going at impact.
 
Apple a Day got it, then others followed.

The gases behind the bullet are moving at the same speed until the bullet gets out of the way allowing them to really accelerate past it, which amounts to the bullet having a "tailwind" until they slow down enough to make the bullet plow through ambient air.

As for exactly what distance the bullet is fastest beyond the muzzle that is, it would be easier to calculate than to measure.
 
There is actually continuing acceleration after leaving the muzzle. How much longer is dependent on wind conditions, bullet design, altitude of the shooter etc. Bear in mind that energy is never lost only transferred so in perfect conditions bullet slow-down is slow!! :cool:
 
Contemplate this: A bullet with a spitzer point (like metal penetrating) VS a full wadcutter. Air resistance acts to slow a bullet, at emergence from the muzzle until it strikes something solid, at varying rates, depending on nose shape, trailing edge shape, etc. All of the other physical forces mentioned also contribute to slowdown.
It occurs to me that some physicists believed that a bullet is of cylindrical, full wadcutter shape or at best a round ball. Whatcha think?
Furthermore, the Tower of Pisa gravitational experiment with a feather and a rock was predicated on dropping the feather quill first. If it is released flat, air resistance slows it appreciably, while it has much less effect on the rock, so the rock strikes first. Also, a good wind will perhaps deflect the rock slightly, but it can make the feather fly into the next city.
 
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