ATF brace rule is out

[BreechFace]

A pistol brace that would satisfy the ATF would be simply a strap loop on the top of the buffer tube in front of the rear plane with a simple strap that straps to one arm. Not hard.

 

[JohnKSa]

Correct. Which is why putting stock-like features on them that are not necessary for brace functionality raised flags and led to the clarification we're now discussing.

 

[someguy2800]

They have the right to waive registration taxes. They are the enforcement branch for the law in question, so it's hard to argue they're operating outside their parameters by enforcing the law. Their position is that they are not turning anything or anyone into anything--they are merely clarifying the law so people understand more clearly what is and isn't regulated. There's some merit to their position.Like it or not, (and I don't) the NFA IS here for good. It's stood up to all challenges for almost 90 years. It's not going anywhere.

Yes it’s long been held that regulatory agency’s have the authority to create regulations as long as they have been authorized to do so by congress. The truth is that the vast majority of laws and regulations on the books in the United States were created by regulatory agencies rather than within an actual bill passed through congress.

 

[BreechFace]

@JohnKSa

Don’t take my passion and discussion as my belief in thinking you are agreeable with of this, I understand your position of ferreting out facts. We are good, just want to state that first and foremost, I appreciate you challenging what I say.

This is a "tax forebearance." I do believe they are operating outside of their purview, this NFA tax was established by Congress, only to be collected by the ATF. But I could be wrong...wouldn't be the first time or the last.

forbearance
fôr-bâr′əns
noun

1. Tolerance and restraint in the face of provocation; patience.
2. The act of giving a debtor more time to pay rather than immediately enforcing a debt that is due.
3. The act or state of forbearing; the cessation or intermission of an act commenced, or a refraining from beginning an act.

Page 204 of ATF's Dumpster Fire

Moreover, the rule expressly provides options for unlicensed individuals and
FFLs to comply with the requirements of the NFA if they are currently in possession of
firearms equipped with a “stabilizing brace” and a barrel length of less than 16 inches
that are short-barreled rifles. The Department, in its enforcement discretion, has
determined that current possessors of these affected firearms have until 120 days after
this rule is published to take the necessary actions, as described in this rule, to comply
with Federal law to avoid civil and criminal penalties. Additionally, in an exercise of its
enforcement discretion, the Department has determined that individuals and FFLs will
not be liable for paying past making and transfer taxes for weapons of the sort described
in this rule that are NFA firearms. For a further discussion on tax forbearance, see
sections IV.B.8.e, IV.B.9.b–c, and V.C of this preamble


​

 

[Havok7416]

Two VERY good points that I'll put to rest in part, and affirm in part. But NOT the way some are thinking...
Firstly, and using the Govs info in the info I took straight from last Fridays latest-greatest release (see below re: pg 162), the AR15 PISTOL buffer tube is a necessary functioning part of the firearm, NOT never can be considered a shouldering point.

The 2nd point is to , unfortunately, address BreechFaces comment, if they want a lesser (than generally accepted normal) length buffer tube. Again, unfortunately, their document ONLY mentions a 6 to 6-1/2inches rearward buffer tube for the AR style pistol. Again, when I do a search through the document for the word ''buffer'', the ONLY inches provided is 6 to 6 1/2.

The industry accepted and therefore easily available is 7- 71/2inches. BIG oopsie, I do NOT believe its a typo.

Whereas some have rightly figured that all the Form1 submissions will be completed in a matter of potentially decades, I can only find a whopping THREE (3) companies that commercially manufacture a less then 6 to 6/12inches pistol buffer tube...

I understand length of pull in the writing,and, clear examples including a rifle chart stating such. However, ARE WE SEEING A POTENTIAL DEFACTO AR PISTOL BAN HERE?


From the News release...

''...factors listed in this rule are to be considered in determining whether the firearm is designed, made, and intended to be fired from the shoulder.
One objective design feature ATF may consider is whether the attachment is required for the cycle of operations of the weapon, which could indicate the firearm is not designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder. For example,an AR-type pistol with a standard 6- to 6-1/2-inch buffer tube may not be designed, made, and intended to be fired from the shoulder even if the buffer tube provides surface area that allows the firearm to be shoulder fired. On an AR-type pistol, the buffer tube encases a spring that drives the bolt forward when the bolt is driven into the buffer tube by the gas from the initial shot. The picture below displays the internal function ofanAR-15 type rifle. The AR-type pistol is a variant of the rifle with the stock removed and has the same receiver and buffer tube function of the rifle version.
PAGE162 ''

I'm reading this a bit differently. The length of the threads on most buffer tubes I have laid eyes on is around 1 inch. Therefore there are approximately 6 to 6 1/2 inches of REARWARD BUFFER TUBE exposed at the back of the firearm. In other words, 7 1/2 inches IS indeed the "standard" buffer tube length but it is measured from the rear of the receiver with the buffer tube threaded into it's proper location. It would be preposterous (more so than the ATF has already made it) for them to check your gun by disassembling each part to measure.

 

[BreechFace]

I'm reading this a bit differently. The length of the threads on most buffer tubes I have laid eyes on is around 1 inch. Therefore there are approximately 6 to 6 1/2 inches of REARWARD BUFFER TUBE exposed at the back of the firearm. In other words, 7 1/2 inches IS indeed the "standard" buffer tube length but it is measured from the rear of the receiver with the buffer tube threaded into it's proper location. It would be preposterous (more so than the ATF has already made it) for them to check your gun by disassembling each part to measure.

Strike Industries has a short pistol buffer tube setup, with an OAL of 5". I'm not sure if that is including the threads or not on the end. But the ATF will get their hand slapped if they say their measurements include the threads as the threads have to protrude into the lower receiver enough to capture the buffer detent spring setup, otherwise, "normal function of the pistol," is compromised which the ATF stated is not being regulated.

 

[herrwalther]

What a mess of a rule. I am not one for registering, even if "free." I am probably going to remove the brace until this mess reviewed by the courts.

 

[BreechFace]

What a mess of a rule. I am not one for registering, even if "free." I am probably going to remove the brace until this mess reviewed by the courts.

Yup. They can take their backdoor gun registry and pound sand, we'll see them in the courts; they bit off more than they can chew providing the 2A plays their cards right and doesn't capitulate with the bone they threw us.

 

[Havok7416]

Strike Industries has a short pistol buffer tube setup, with an OAL of 5". I'm not sure if that is including the threads or not on the end. But the ATF will get their hand slapped if they say their measurements include the threads as the threads have to protrude into the lower receiver enough to capture the buffer detent spring setup, otherwise, "normal function of the pistol," is compromised which the ATF stated is not being regulated.

I've seen the Strike Industries product. I ended up ordering a smooth buffer tube (mine is equipped with detents). I intend to swap my buffer tube out - at least for now. Worst case I have spare parts lying around for a rainy day (if the ruling is overturned) or I have to destroy the tube/stabilizer. I will measure the smooth tube once it is installed, but I'm pretty confident it will fall between 6 and 6 1/2 inches.

 

[CapnMac]

Matt is both an FFL and an Attorney in Florida.
Here is his quick assessment as of Tuesday 17JAN23
Note that the date of Transfers of existing braced weapons gets cut off on Publication day.

 

[DustyGmt]

What precludes one from following the ATF guidelines and removing any braces from the household, installing a pistol buffer tube (no detents for adjustment, just a round tube designed to just house the necessary items for function) and utilizing the end of the buffer tube against one’s shoulder?

Nothing is illegal there. I can do the same thing with a handgun resting the grip against my shoulder and pull the trigger. Stupid, yes; uncomfortable, double yes. Illegal, absolutely not.

I’m tired of the ATF flip flopping and ruining a livelihoods of people who invest in legal manufacture, stocking and selling of goods only to have the rug pulled out from under them when the ATF feels like it.

I’ll get rid of my braces and put pistol tubes back one but I’m not going to amnesty myself into their tyranny. That whole organization is woefully incompetent.

They want everyone to amnesty their pistols so this goes away, they don’t want to fight this in the courts, because they will lose and lose badly. It will bring to light all that is wrong with the NFA. By complying to this, we give them what they want, pistol AR’s registered and buoying up the NFA reason for existence and satiating the 2A masses with handing out “free” tax stamps, which seemingly should have to go through Congress as it’s a budget item. I would rather the 2A population fight this by the fact that the ATF is attempting to require me to register a previously non-registered gun for tracking. It was the ATF that previously allowed pistol braces, they can deal with the fact that their laws are not black and white and it is the government that increasingly is damaging the 2A through unconstitutional rules and laws.

I don’t need an SBR that bad, and if I do want one in the future I’ll pay for it. I’m not going to comply with this and make their indiscretions validated. The pistol owners, manufactures, stocking items, resellers as well as all the people who in the past paid $200 for an SBR should file suit against the ATF for regulating with out any grey matter in their tyrannical brains.

I agree with this and I wish everyone else did too.....

 

[someguy2800]

 

[JohnKSa]

This is a "tax forebearance." I do believe they are operating outside of their purview, this NFA tax was established by Congress, only to be collected by the ATF. But I could be wrong...wouldn't be the first time or the last.

The 1968 GCA authorizes the Secretary of the Treasury to allow amnesties.

 

[army_eod]

since I am already a felon, I will just put real stocks on mine.

 

[JohnKSa]

If you are already a felon, just having a firearm is a crime, regardless of its configuration.

 

[Ironicaintit]

If you are already a felon, just having a firearm is a crime, regardless of its configuration.

He meant because this rule would make him one

 

[JohnKSa]

At this point, nobody is a felon as a result of this rule. Do nothing for 120 days and it might be a different story.

 

[SchmidtRubin]

Braces never really interested me.


Now they do.

 

[trackskippy]

Does anyone have the actual date that the ruling was entered into the federal registry? Best as I can tell, the ruling and the 120 days doesnt start until then.

 

[12Bravo20]

Does anyone have the actual date that the ruling was entered into the federal registry? Best as I can tell, the ruling and the 120 days doesnt start until then.

As of this morning when I looked, the ruling has not been published yet. And yes the 120 days does not start until the rule is published.

 

[Choctaw]

I'm picking up a braced lower from my FFL today.

 

[N555]

They have the right to waive registration taxes. They are the enforcement branch for the law in question, so it's hard to argue they're operating outside their parameters by enforcing the law. Their position is that they are not turning anything or anyone into anything--they are merely clarifying the law so people understand more clearly what is and isn't regulated. There's some merit to their position.Like it or not, (and I don't) the NFA IS here for good. It's stood up to all challenges for almost 90 years. It's not going anywhere.

One challenge, by a dead defendant.

 

[HPCadm17]

I hope some actionable pushback happens quickly, because we here in CT, with our CT-legal "others," are between a rock and a hard place. There is virtually nothing we can do to satisfy both this new rule and CT state law until we either receive some guidance from either SLFU or the legislature, or this ATF rule is shot down. It really is a catch-22.

 

[DustyGmt]

The federal government didn't have any trouble amending and changing the minimum required barrel length from 18" to 16" when they wanted to sell their stockpile of M1 carbines to U.S. citizens.

 

[12Bravo20]

The federal government didn't have any trouble amending and changing the minimum required barrel length from 18" to 16" when they wanted to sell their stockpile of M1 carbines to U.S. citizens.

Which they did not do until after they had already sold a bunch.

And there is no reason why they could not change the >16" barrel requirement again if they wanted to. Most 10 1/2" barreled uppers will be right at 26" with a MIL-SPEC collapsable stock in the collapsed position. And the ATF measures adjustable stocks in the extended position.