ATF form 4473

[1st.MarDiv]

Form 4473.........

On this form question 11b and 11c ask if the applicant has a felony conviction imprisonment for a term "exceeding" one year.

EXCEPTION To 11c and 11.i:
A person who has been convicted of a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could have imprisoned the person for more than one year, or who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence, is NOT prohibited from purchasing, receiving or possessing a firearm if:

Question:

Would the firearms applicant be eligible to purchase a firearm if the sentence was for 10 months total, no imprisonment but work release??

 

[Spats McGee]

Welcome to THR, 1st.MarDiv!

You have to read the question carefully. It's not a question of what punishment the defendant received. It's a question of what the maximum allowable punishment for the underlying charge was.

A person who has been convicted of a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could have imprisoned the person for more than one year, or who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence, is NOT prohibited from purchasing, receiving or possessing a firearm if:

(emphasis supplied)

 

[yugorpk]

That sure puts a lot on the buyer. A lot of those 4473 questions no one reads do.

 

[Frank Ettin]

That sure puts a lot on the buyer. A lot of those 4473 questions no one reads do.

The questions are there and there are instructions and explanations on following pages of the form. Whatever is there can be read.

If someone gets himself in trouble because he didn't read the question or the instructions and explanations, it's his problem. He is responsible for his answers; and if he messes up because he didn't read the questions, instructions or explanations, he has no one to blame but himself.

 

[skydve76]

The questions are there and there are instructions and explanations on following pages of the form. Whatever is there can be read.

If someone gets himself in trouble because he didn't read the question or the instructions and explanations, it's his problem. He is responsible for his answers; and if he messes up because he didn't read the questions, instructions or explanations, he has no one to blame but himself.

Except:
A person may not know the maximum sentence of a crime they were convicted of.
The max sentence may have changed since they were convicted.
So it completely understandable to not know how to answer it.

I wish people would have more compassion for people on this forum. None of us are immune of being convicted of some petty law that has a broader and broader sentence range that can invoke revocation of a core right.

BTW, flying an unregistered drone in a park is now such a crime if convicted will trigger a firearms disability.

http://www.faa.gov/uas/law_enforcement/media/UAS-Enforcement-FAQs.pdf

This is relevant information as I gurantee that someone who got a $100 fine for flying a drone in a park would be shocked to find out that this question applies to them. Ergo my point.

The amount of complexity this form has behind it, many legal experts cant even answer these types of questions for people. Let alone a non-legal professional who may be a veteran or someone more deserving of an answer other than a chastising comment.

 

[skydve76]

Form 4473.........

On this form question 11b and 11c ask if the applicant has a felony conviction imprisonment for a term "exceeding" one year.

EXCEPTION To 11c and 11.i:
A person who has been convicted of a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could have imprisoned the person for more than one year, or who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence, is NOT prohibited from purchasing, receiving or possessing a firearm if:

Question:

Would the firearms applicant be eligible to purchase a firearm if the sentence was for 10 months total, no imprisonment but work release??

Youll have to find out the sentence range. If you don't know I would just call up the local sheriff and ask. The sentence you received is irrelevant.


The prosecution of 4473 perjuries are rare in general. However that's not a reason to "take a chance" and see. I can tell you there a numerous examples out there where people are denied as they didn't really know they were prohibited. This is common.

In some states such as Pa, they routinely go out and arrest people who are denied.

So be careful and do your research. I do think you can find out without needing to spend much if any $$.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...A person may not know the maximum sentence of a crime they were convicted of.
The max sentence may have changed since they were convicted.
So it completely understandable to not know how to answer it.....

One really doesn't have an option. The question needs to be answered truthfully. If someone lacks the necessary information, he needs to do some research.

Yes, in some circumstances a question might be difficult to answer. But in reality, that is not an acceptable excuse.

...I wish people would have more compassion for people on this forum....

Compassion has nothing to do with it. All the expressions of compassion there could be cannot change reality. We need to learn to deal with reality as it is.

...BTW, flying an unregistered drone in a park is now such a crime if convicted will trigger a firearms disability.

http://www.faa.gov/uas/law_enforcement/media/UAS-Enforcement-FAQs.pdf

This is relevant information as I gurantee that someone who got a $100 fine for flying a drone in a park would be shocked to find out that this question applies to them. Ergo my point....

Based on the Q&As you linked to regarding this law, enforcement appears to be a very serious matter. I seriously doubt that anyone will wind up with a minimal fine under the FAA regulations without also being aware of the potential significance of the violation and the possible penalties.

If what you describe has actually happened, provide documentation.

Youll have to find out the sentence range. If you don't know I would just call up the local sheriff and ask.....

A local LEO is a lousy place to go for this sort of advice.

To properly advise the OP regarding his situation, one would need to understand the exact crime the conviction was for as well as the terms of the disposition. And that requires review of the relevant document/court records as well as some research.

If the OP was represented by counsel in the original proceedings, that should be his first contact.

 

[sequins]

If local PD enforcing the laws aren't qualified to answer I don't see how a lawyer who just reads papers and deciphers the information is any more qualified. I keep hearing stories about people with no bar affiliation practicing law for years, making partner even, and then 15yrs later oh whattya know it's just some random guy who knows how to speak and comport himself as a lawyer. At least a cop with a badge and uniform answering phones at the sheriff's office is a real officer...

If I got bad legal advice from a crap lawyer or fake imposter lawyer would that be a valid legal defense for a perjurous answer? Would bad legal advice from an officer be a better or worse defense? Please don't tell me to ask a lawyer

The ATF wants to squash gun sales and convoluted rules designed to ensare the unsavvy are a part of their strategy. Apparently PA LEO are using denials to round people up!

Ultimately, compassion for the user with a question is high road behavior. Calling a user a braindead illiterate, either expressly or through implication, because he wants to clarify a purposefully obtuse question is not high road.

Yes, the legal burden rests on the person filling out the form, but if a person filling out the form asks questions to ensure he answers properly he is acting in good faith and deserves respect.

 

[Frank Ettin]

If local PD enforcing the laws aren't qualified to answer I don't see how a lawyer who just reads papers and deciphers the information is any more qualified....

Because a cop's job and a lawyer's job are different, and consequently, their respective education, training and experience are different.

....I keep hearing stories about people with no bar affiliation practicing law for years, making partner even, and then 15yrs later oh whattya know it's just some random guy who knows how to speak and comport himself as a lawyer....

And folks keep telling stories about the Bermuda Triangle, the Holocaust not having happened, the moon landing being faked, etc. Ignorant and gullible people believe all sorts of stuff.

...Yes, the legal burden rests on the person filling out the form, but if a person filling out the form asks questions to ensure he answers properly he is acting in good faith and deserves respect.

Whether he deserves respect is not the issue and also depends on the exact circumstances. But in any case the legal consequences of his actions are the issue.

 

[coloradokevin]

If local PD enforcing the laws aren't qualified to answer I don't see how a lawyer who just reads papers and deciphers the information is any more qualified. I keep hearing stories about people with no bar affiliation practicing law for years, making partner even, and then 15yrs later oh whattya know it's just some random guy who knows how to speak and comport himself as a lawyer. At least a cop with a badge and uniform answering phones at the sheriff's office is a real officer…

As a career LEO I will also concur with the other poster in saying that asking a police officer isn't going to necessarily get you a good answer in this instance. Knowing what the law is, and what the elements of a crime are, is different from knowing sentencing guidelines for any given offense.

I supervise a shift of as many as 25 officers, and I bet that most of them couldn't tell you the minimum and maximum sentences for most of the crimes they arrest folks on (that includes me). Don't get me wrong, I can take an educated guess on the subject, and probably be close, but the nature of this question necessitates an answer that goes beyond a guess.

But, for whatever it's worth, the vast majority of lawyers probably don't know the answer to this question either. Lawyers tend to specialize, and you'd need a criminal defense lawyer if you really wanted to get close to the truth on this one.

My advice? Look up the law for yourself, and see what it says. It isn't that this information is out of reach to most folks, it just isn't typically *known* to most folks.

 

[MedWheeler]

The max sentence may have changed since they were convicted.

It's about what the defendant could have been sentenced to. If he could not have been sentenced to, say, more than one year at that time, then the rule would not apply.

 

[Midwest]

"Q: What action will be taken when the FAA becomes aware of someone operating an unregistered sUAS?

A: The FAA has multiple options available for enforcing FAA regulations. These
range from education to administrative actions (in the form of a formal warning notice or letter of correction)to the ability to assess civil penalties up to $27,500. Criminal penalties include fines of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment for up to three years."

So if they got a fine of $100 and a day in jail, even though they could have been imprisoned for up to 3 years, but were not .

Do they still lose their gun rights for the $100 fine and day in jail?

Because they could have been imprisoned for up to 3 years?
.

 

[v35]

Do they still lose their gun rights for the $100 fine and day in jail?

An answer depends on whether the FAA decided to impose a civil penalty or a criminal penalty, since they have the authority to impose either one.

The imposition of a monetary fine without imprisonment implies a civil penalty, not a criminal one.

In my opinion if a drone operator deliberately attempts to collide with a manned aircraft, that is attempted homicide for which a criminal charge is completely justified, and for which a lengthy prison sentence should be imposed.

 

[Frank Ettin]

"Q: What action will be taken when the FAA becomes aware of someone operating an unregistered sUAS?

A: The FAA has multiple options available for enforcing FAA regulations. These
range from education to administrative actions (in the form of a formal warning notice or letter of correction)to the ability to assess civil penalties up to $27,500. Criminal penalties include fines of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment for up to three years."

So if they got a fine of $100 and a day in jail, even though they could have been imprisoned for up to 3 years, but were not .

Do they still lose their gun rights for the $100 fine and day in jail?

Because they could have been imprisoned for up to 3 years?

Remember that the $100.00 fine supposition was just a throwaway hypothetical. And look at the exact phrasing of the answer from the Q&As.

It says, "The FAA has multiple options...." Enforcement by means of administrative actions or civil penalties won't affect one's Second Amendment rights under the Gun Control Act. To be a Gun Control Act matter, one would need to be criminally charged in a way which would expose one to a prison sentence. Being charged with a federal felony requires an indictment by a federal grand jury.

Essentially, this line of argument by skydve76 in post 5 was just "blowing smoke."

 

[45_auto]

Enforcement by means of administrative actions or civil penalties won't affect one's Second Amendment rights under the Gun Control Act.

But enforcement by means of "Criminal penalties including fines of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment for up to three years." (one of the FAA's multiple options) WILL effect one's Second Amendment rights if convicted.

Essentially, this line of argument by Frank Ettin is just using a different color smoke than skydve76's smoke.

 

[skydve76]

It says, "The FAA has multiple options...." Enforcement by means of administrative actions or civil penalties won't affect one's Second Amendment rights under the Gun Control Act. To be a Gun Control Act matter, one would need to be criminally charged in a way which would expose one to a prison sentence. Being charged with a federal felony requires an indictment by a federal grand jury.

Essentially, this line of argument by skydve76 in post 5 was just "blowing smoke."

Once again this strengthens my point albeit I was incorrect about the $100 fine.

-We have laws that have BOTH civil criminal parts, leaving one to wonder which one he/she was charged under. I certainly agree this will cause additional confusion.

I'm not here to argue which laws and crimes cause loss of rights. I am to say its confusing and not as clear cut as you put it original.

Your subsequent answers were great, your first response was a bit cold and offered 0 help. Which is what triggered me into action.

Acting like someone should have this all figured is just plain silly. Its designed to be confusing, and have a much wider net than it should.

None of this helps the OP except to let him know that he is not the only in that boat and he certainly doesn't lack intelligence because he doesn't know.

"What action will be taken when the FAA becomes aware of someone operating an unregistered sUAS? A: The FAA has multiple options available for enforcing FAA regulations. These range from education to administrative actions (in the form of a formal warning notice or letter of correction) to the ability to assess civil penalties up to $27,500. Criminal penalties include fines of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment for up to three years. "

 

[Drail]

It IS designed to be confusing - just like a tax form or legal contract. One more reason we "need" all these lawyers. It is after all - a bidness.........

 

[skydve76]

That's not the only reason we need lawyers.
To the OP, get your criminal history or call the sheriff to find out the criminal code you were charged with. Post it here if you want and we can help you figure it out if that is possible. We will need a state too, possibly city depending which ordinance or statute it is. Should be able to find the sentencing guidelines.

I'm 99.9% sure this thread will be close so feel free to start another once you have the information.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Frank does a real good job but I felt his reply was a bit cold and terse.

Imagine how cold and terse a judge would be if you were drug into court because you committed a felony by lying on the 4473. I know it isn't likely to happen, but it is a felony with a sentence of up to 5 years should they enforce it.

Attorneys deal with the letter of the law. They're not self help counselors whose job it is to hold your hand and tell you everything is going to be okay.

A question was asked and an informed answer was given.

The clergy is in the business of compassion. Attorneys are in the business of the law.

 

[skydve76]

I took that out of my post, glad you could dig it up. This isn't a courtroom, this isn't law office. Its a forum where gun owners and gun rights proponents support each other.

Lets show people that we are supportive not deter them from asking questions. We all deserve each other's respect and understanding. In that sense we are all more like clergy around here than judges.

BTW Ive seen judges act with great compassion and understanding.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I took that out of my post, glad you could dig it up.

I didn't dig anything up. It was there when I made my post. Or I wouldn't have seen it.

This isn't a courtroom, this isn't law office.

True enough.
It is however the legal section of the forum, where people come to get legal questions answered.

Its a forum where gun owners and gun rights proponents support each other.

I certainly understand that and agree with it.
I just think that part of supporting each other is telling the truth and not beating around the bush when possible criminal charges are at stake.

I am a grown man and I don't need someone to sugar coat anything for me in order to not hurt my feelings. I'll take straight and honest truth over sugar coated bull poop any day of the week.

Also, I haven't seen the OP on here complaining about not being treated with compassion. Let's see how he feels about the answer.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...We have laws that have BOTH civil criminal parts, leaving one to wonder which one he/she was charged under. I certainly agree this will cause additional confusion.
...

Once again, to be charged with a federal felony one must be indicted by a federal grand jury. And if someone is thus indicted, he will have no doubt about it.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I took that out of my post, glad you could dig it up. This isn't a courtroom, this isn't law office. Its a forum where gun owners and gun rights proponents support each other.....

Actually, if one wants to know what we do in the Legal Forum on THR he can look on the Index Page:

In the Legal Forum we try to understand what the law is (including court decisions and proposed laws), how it works, and how it applies to RKBA issues. We focus on the way things are – not the way we think they should be. However, nothing in the Legal Forum is intended to be, nor should it be considered, legal advice. (Be sure to read: THR Legal Forum Guidelines: Read Before Posting)

 

[BSA1]

To the OP, get your criminal history or call the sheriff to find out the criminal code you were charged with. Post it here if you want and we can help you figure it out if that is possible.

Do NOT post your arrest and conviction history on THR. Internet and facebook. This type of information is very sensitive and should be shared on a confidential basis. If you want shop around for free legal advice do it by PM or email. Folks have lost their jobs after their criminal history became public.

In a previous life one of my tasks was running NCIC checks on employees, job applicants, visitors and volunteers. Typically I ran into two issues;

1. The person pled guilty to a crime when they were young say 18 - 19 yoa. More often than not when I interviewed them about the offense their story was they didn't really realize the consequences of pleading guilty / plea bargain and minimize the seriousness of their crime.

2. The person doesn't understand all of the facts in his case that resulted in his conviction. They state that their lawyer / D.A. / Judge told them that if they pled guilty / plea bargain all they had to do was pay a fine and unsupervised probation.

The Criminal Code is complicated from State to State. The best advice is to consult a lawyer that practices criminal law. He can sort out the offenses, convictions and legal remedies.

 

[Gordon]

not too far off the post's point is the "illegal user of ... marijuana... " question for those who have state "medical MJ" cards. , since it is a Federal form and federally it is a title 2 substance then.... ? Local gunshops use the "don't ask don't tell" policy in Ca. as the DOJ does not cross reference it (about the only thing they do NOT cross reference ) and unless the applicant is so stoned they try to use the card for the required 2nd form of state ID they proceed with the DROS. To me this is ultimate in BS in selective enforcement, irregardless of my position on pot.