Owen Sparks
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Yet you have to register for the draft at 18 because the government might need your services in the Army where you will be issued a handgun. Does anyone else see a contradiction here?
ATF on Shotguns, Pistol-Grip Shotguns, and Short-Barrel Shotguns
- Thread starter Bubbles
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Carl N. Brown
Member
Just to add to the confusion, you can make a Title I shotgun from a Title I PGO "other firearm" by installing a buttstock if the barrel is 18" or more; but when you re-install the pistol grip, it is still a Title I shotgun with a pistol grip and it does not revert to a Title I PGO "other firearms".
PGO "other firearm" is a manufacturer designation, sold as on a 4473. A user taking a shotgun and replacing the buttstock with a pistol grip is creating a pistol grip shotgun, not a Pistol Grip Only "other firearm".
PGO "other firearm" is a manufacturer designation, sold as on a 4473. A user taking a shotgun and replacing the buttstock with a pistol grip is creating a pistol grip shotgun, not a Pistol Grip Only "other firearm".
Interesting discussion here:
http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/what-do-sporting-purposes-have-to-do-with-second-amendment
As the writer points out, on one hand ATF says "non-sporting" guns are a no-no ... while U.S. v. Miller says that any gun not suited to militia use isn't protected by the 2A.
So ... the gist of it, as I see it, is that ATF says that militia-type guns can be banned ... while SCOTUS in Miller says that non-militia guns can be banned.
In other words, everything on THIS side of the line can be banned ... and everything on THAT side of the line can be banned, too!
"Heads, we win, tails, you lose"!
http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/what-do-sporting-purposes-have-to-do-with-second-amendment
As the writer points out, on one hand ATF says "non-sporting" guns are a no-no ... while U.S. v. Miller says that any gun not suited to militia use isn't protected by the 2A.
So ... the gist of it, as I see it, is that ATF says that militia-type guns can be banned ... while SCOTUS in Miller says that non-militia guns can be banned.
In other words, everything on THIS side of the line can be banned ... and everything on THAT side of the line can be banned, too!
"Heads, we win, tails, you lose"!
xcgates
Member
Owen, stop trying to make sense of these things, you will induce a stroke!
While I would love to be able to do this, my frequent moving and lack of deep pockets effectively limit me from trying this, as I have absolutely no desire to be a test case. To whomever tries this, I would not suggest bragging in public, and allow yourself a margin of error for measuring. And assume that any government authority that will be measuring it will go for the shortest distance.
Something like, measuring from the bottom of the muzzle to the back of the grip diagonally, not like you would measure as if you had giant calipers, measuring from the flat of the muzzle to the back of the grip, parallel to the barrel. Does that make sense?
Kind of like AKTI has for knives: link
While I would love to be able to do this, my frequent moving and lack of deep pockets effectively limit me from trying this, as I have absolutely no desire to be a test case. To whomever tries this, I would not suggest bragging in public, and allow yourself a margin of error for measuring. And assume that any government authority that will be measuring it will go for the shortest distance.
Something like, measuring from the bottom of the muzzle to the back of the grip diagonally, not like you would measure as if you had giant calipers, measuring from the flat of the muzzle to the back of the grip, parallel to the barrel. Does that make sense?
Kind of like AKTI has for knives: link
BBroadside
Member
- Colonel
I'm not sure the ATF's injunctions against non-sporting weapons have been tested in court. While we can't expect different branches of government to agree, we can expect the judicial branch to "win in a fight" with the executive. (Maybe not under Presidents named Jackson!)
I expect the ATF's anti-non-sporting regs to go down if they are seriously tested under this combination of Justices. Any of them die and get replaced by Obama appointees, probably not. So yet again we are left with the most powerful branch being the indirectly-elected branch, with people voting more about judicial matters than anything else.
Has there been a fundamental change in federal restrictions? When we had our shop, following the rules and regs, a smoothbore (shotgun) had to have a minimum of an 18" barrel, regardless of overall length. Eighteen inch barrel and minimum overall of 26". I seriously doubt that a non-nfa firearm can have a shorter than 18" barrel without some kind of repercussion.
Inquiring minds want to know.
Inquiring minds want to know.
nalioth
Member
Inquiring minds should read this thread. It has been explained how a shotgun can legally have a > 18" barrel.PapaG said:
The OP has PDFs which explain it, as well.
xcgates
Member
Inquiring Minds also appears to be in Illinois, a state that has restrictions above and beyond federal restrictions, which would affect how a shop would operate.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
I hate to be "that guy", but like Nailoth said, just read this very thread! It's all right there! You could start with this: http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/testttt20001.pdf
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
I just came across this ATF report and wanted to share it.
As some of you may know, ATF proposed the above criteria. During the comment period, they received some 21,000 comments on the proposed criteria. Before any such criteria could be enacted, the House managed to slip a provision into an appropriations bill which forbid ATF from using any funds to forbid the import of a shotgun for sporting purposes if ATF hadn't already prohibited such import.
On July 2012, ATF issued this report addressing the comments and adopting the criteria going forward: http://www.atf.gov/files/firearms/industry/july-2012-importability-of-certain-shotguns.pdf
The high points are:
1. 3-gun is not a sport, and even if it were, we will compare it to hunting rather than other sanctioned firearms sports or else our bias might be obvious.
2. Pistol grips help disabled people so they are OK. An integrated rail helps attach pistol grips, so they are also OK. Everything else on the list is forbidden and we won't even dignify valid criticisms of those choices with a response.
3. We're not banning anything. We are just restricting importation. Not a word said about how sporting purposes criteria also affects domestic shotguns.
I thought this response would let people know how their comments were received as well as emphasize the importance in commenting on proposed regulation 41P - the comment period for which ends December 9th.
As some of you may know, ATF proposed the above criteria. During the comment period, they received some 21,000 comments on the proposed criteria. Before any such criteria could be enacted, the House managed to slip a provision into an appropriations bill which forbid ATF from using any funds to forbid the import of a shotgun for sporting purposes if ATF hadn't already prohibited such import.
On July 2012, ATF issued this report addressing the comments and adopting the criteria going forward: http://www.atf.gov/files/firearms/industry/july-2012-importability-of-certain-shotguns.pdf
The high points are:
1. 3-gun is not a sport, and even if it were, we will compare it to hunting rather than other sanctioned firearms sports or else our bias might be obvious.
2. Pistol grips help disabled people so they are OK. An integrated rail helps attach pistol grips, so they are also OK. Everything else on the list is forbidden and we won't even dignify valid criticisms of those choices with a response.
3. We're not banning anything. We are just restricting importation. Not a word said about how sporting purposes criteria also affects domestic shotguns.
I thought this response would let people know how their comments were received as well as emphasize the importance in commenting on proposed regulation 41P - the comment period for which ends December 9th.
Arizona_Mike
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- Feb 15, 2013
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As has been discussed previously in the NFA subforum, this ruling, while it makes the most sense under the flawed statutes, logically puts all PGOs of any length barrel
outside of the "ordinary shotgun" exemption to the .50 cal limit.
But there are a lot of such PGOs out there and the ATF is never going to "go there".
Mike
outside of the "ordinary shotgun" exemption to the .50 cal limit.
But there are a lot of such PGOs out there and the ATF is never going to "go there".
Mike
Rushthezeppelin
Member
You are also forgetting about the .950 JDJ which nearly got classified a DD. Surprised more of yall haven't come across the video of on youtube, its in the suggested vids list for almost every hickok45 vid and most other gun related vids. That thing looks scary though with its nearly ton and a half of recoil energy.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Rush? I might have been forgetting it back in 2010 when I posted that. But I might not have even heard of it back then!
Rushthezeppelin
Member
Bahhh, my bad. Totally didn't look at post date.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
No worries! Heck, I tried to check but I'm not sure they'd invented it back then! I do sure know I need one, though! I've got some problem that I can't solve without one. I just don't know exactly what that problem is yet. But when I find out, LOOK OUT!
Rushthezeppelin
Member
Ya I was looking back to and can't confirm a date but the earliest mention I'm finding was last year so it may well have not been invented at the time, I just don't think about looking the date when a thread is only 3 pages long.
And I think I can help you come up with a few problems that need to be solved with that mortar launcher, namely being the funnest way to dislocate your shoulder lol. GL getting one being that only 3 rifles have ever been made chambered for that round.
And I think I can help you come up with a few problems that need to be solved with that mortar launcher, namely being the funnest way to dislocate your shoulder lol. GL getting one being that only 3 rifles have ever been made chambered for that round.
Nickel Plated
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- Jun 14, 2012
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- 385
The whole sawed-off "other" shotgun is Shockwave Tech's whole marketing strategy for their Raptor grips. Essentially installin one of those on a Mossberg gives you more length in the back over the standard Mossberg grip allowing you to install the factory Mossberg 14" 590 barrel and mag tube and still stay over 26"
http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=88
To those claiming they don't trust this because the ATF can just reverse their ruling at any time:
This is first of all not a "ruling" it's written right into the law. Not much the ATF can do about it. The required barrel and overall lengths and the definition of a shotgun written into the law really don't leave much room for interpretation.
Secondly, this "ruling" by the ATF is nothing new it has been in place since the GCA 68' if not NFA 34'. If they had any intention to change their mind on it, they'd have done so a long time ago.
Anyway it's not like ATF specifically knows you have one. Build it, have fun with it, impress all the ladies at the range. If ATF ever changes their mind, all you gotta do is install a new 18" barrel and pretend it was always like that.
http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=88
To those claiming they don't trust this because the ATF can just reverse their ruling at any time:
This is first of all not a "ruling" it's written right into the law. Not much the ATF can do about it. The required barrel and overall lengths and the definition of a shotgun written into the law really don't leave much room for interpretation.
Secondly, this "ruling" by the ATF is nothing new it has been in place since the GCA 68' if not NFA 34'. If they had any intention to change their mind on it, they'd have done so a long time ago.
Anyway it's not like ATF specifically knows you have one. Build it, have fun with it, impress all the ladies at the range. If ATF ever changes their mind, all you gotta do is install a new 18" barrel and pretend it was always like that.
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