ATF on Shotguns, Pistol-Grip Shotguns, and Short-Barrel Shotguns

[nalioth]

How would this affect an end owner modifying a PGO only shotgun to under 18" barrel but keeping overall over 26"?

This thread is as attempt to answer that very question, and does.

If your shotgun arrived from the factory with a pistol grip, so long as you maintain the 26" OAL, you can get to choppin' . . .

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Shotgun with Pistol Grip

If it was sold on the 4473 as a long gun, you must observe 26" overall minimum and 18" barrel overall minimum.

factory original Pistol Grip Only Shotgun never had a buttstock

If it was sold as on the 4473 as a "other firearm", you must observe the 26" overall minimum and may disegard the 18" barrel minumum (if you install a buttstock at sometime; then you would have to file a Form 1 for a SBS).

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Heller '08 and McDonald '10 recognized self-defense as a justification for RKBA; it is high time that the gun control act be revised to recognize firearms for all lawful purposes, not just "sporting purposes".

My recap on this (and I welcome correction if I got anything wrong) is, best I can figure:

o The 4473 used to have three choices: Handgun, Long Gun or Both.
o August 2008 the 4473 was revised by ATF to have three choices: Handgun, Long Gun or Other.
o ATF instructions for 4473 in a newsletter for FFLs defined "other" as firearms that are neither handguns nor long guns (PGO shotguns, frames, receivers, lowers)

This new "other" category are Title I Gun Control Act "firearms" that are not Title II National Firearms Act "firearms".

Len Savage, Historic Arms LLC, 27 May 2010, sent a request for clarification to ATF Firearms Technology Branch. The answer they gave him was an "Other" PGO shotgun must meet the 26" overall length, but since it does not meet the definition of shotgun (long gun designed to be fired from the shoulder) an "Other" PGO shotgun with barrel under 18" is neither a SBS nor an AOW: as long as overall length is not concealable (under 26") it is still an "Other" PGO shotgun.

Shotgun with Pistol Grip: If it was sold on the 4473 as a long gun, you must observe 26" overall minimum and 18" barrel overall minimum.

factory original Pistol Grip Only Shotgun never had a butt: if it was sold on the 4473 as an "Other", you must observe the 26" overall minimum and may disregard the 18" barrel minumum, according to the ATF FTB letter in response to the Historic Arms LLC request.

My impression is that if you install a buttstock at sometime and the PGO shotgun barrel is under 18", then you would have to file a Form 1 for a SBS.

My further impression is that I ain't takin' no chances based on confusing instruction in a ATF newsletter and one ATF FTB letter on a confused subject.

 

[Bubbles]

My further impression is that I ain't takin' no chances based on confusing instruction in a ATF newsletter and one ATF FTB letter on a confused subject.

Which is very smart of you.
http://cleanupatf.org/forums/index.php?/topic/147-new-class-of-firearm-you-should-know-about/
Posts are in reverse chronological order - start reading from the bottom.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I will predict ATF may eventually rule that shotguns sold with pistol grip only and barrel length 18 inches or more are long guns (Title I conventional GCA shotguns) if:
_ they were designed for, and will accept, a factory shoulder stock, and
_ they were not concealable weapons (not under 26 inch NFA and neither AOW nor SBS).

Now whether PGO (from the factory) will retain the handgun age limit is another thing.

 

[Zero Knives]

Just came across this and find this very intriguing. First off, I'm having difficulty distilling search terms down to check any progress. Is the outline above still the latest unofficial accepted opinion on the matter?

I'm assuming the original state of the firearm from production is what matters. If the firearm was purchased new and the salesperson inadvertently (and somewhat understandably) marks the a PGO as "long gun" on the 4473, I'm assuming the gun is still and always will be classified as "other" regardless of what the form says.

Lastly, how long does it take to get a response from the ATF and did Remington ever make a PGO 870?

 

[Sam1911]

I'm assuming the gun is still and always will be classified as "other" regardless of what the form says.

Well, that's the rub, isn't it? The status of what a gun was originally configured to be exists (one would assume) in the records of the manufacturer. The form 4473 is supposed to record what kind of gun it was when sold. But if at any point along the way, someone snuck into a closet and installed a buttstock, giggled manically, and then reinstalled the original PGO, the ATF would say it is now a "shotgun" and so cannot be anything but a shotgun or a "firearm made from a shotgun."

Now the record of that event exists in no place other than the memory of our laughing closet butt-stocking maniac. (I think I just invented a new psychosis.)

What does that mean? I'm not sure, but I think I'd rather not have any data points in the gun's history that indicate it wasn't an "Other."

 

[Zero Knives]

Sounds like a new fetish rather than a psychosis.

That is the rub, huh. What matters more, it's original disposition or what some flimsy form states as filled out by an absent-minded sales clerk?

For that matter, if I purchase a used firearm from the pawn shop with a PGO on it, that form could say "other" at the time of purchase; who knows what the original one said.

I think I know the answer. But it's based on logic, so I'm almost sure it's wrong.

 

[Sam1911]

if I purchase a used firearm from the pawn shop with a PGO on it, that form could say "other" at the time of purchase; who knows what the original one said

And, again, a very good question. If a pawn shop takes a PGO shotgun in pawn and then sells it, what should they process the sale as? All they know for certain is that is it an "other" right now. But the ATF says they care deeply what it was at every moment of its history. Even if the shop contacted the manufacturer and asked them to verify what it originally shipped as, there would be no plausible way to confirm that no owner had added a stock, and indeed, that it hadn't been configured with a shoulder stock for 20 years prior to being re-configured as a PGO-stick and sold to the pawn broker.

Once again, when taken even half way to its logical extremes, a gun law falls on its face. Surprise, surprise.

 

[Zero Knives]

To hell with this. Tax stamp it is...

 

[natman]

It's an fascinating intellectual exercise into the rabbit hole of NFA regulations. While the letters make the FEDERAL position clear, it seems wide open to problems at the state level.

As a practical matter, it seems like an awful lot of trouble in order to make a barrel one inch shorter.

 

[Bubbles]

As a practical matter, it seems like an awful lot of trouble in order to make a barrel one inch shorter.

Which is why no manufacturer - even those who have letters from the ATF - are producing one.

 

[nalioth]

While the letters make the FEDERAL position clear, it seems wide open to problems at the state level.

Guess that'd depend on your state.

Some of won't have any problems if we go down this road.

As a practical matter, it seems like an awful lot of trouble in order to make a barrel one inch shorter.

Ahh, but let's put our thinkin' cap on . .

So long as you start with a PGO shotty, and keep it in the 26" limit, the sky's the limit:

Cutting a standard stock so that you have a complete pistol grip gives you more length in the back, allowing you to cut off that length from the barrel to maintain the 26" OAL.

 

[natman]

Guess that'd depend on your state.

Some of won't have any problems if we go down this road.

Ahh, but let's put our thinkin' cap on . .

So long as you start with a PGO shotty, and keep it in the 26" limit, the sky's the limit:

Cutting a standard stock so that you have a complete pistol grip gives you more length in the back, allowing you to cut off that length from the barrel to maintain the 26" OAL.

OK, but it's still 26" long. Only now you've added the length to the grip, where it's useless and taken it away from the barrel, where it would do some good.

 

[nalioth]

OK, but it's still 26" long. Only now you've added the length to the grip, where it's useless and taken it away from the barrel, where it would do some good

Just demonstrating some "it's legal" mathematics is all.

If you read the whole thread, there are other mathematical formulas discussed.

 

[smince]

Only now you've added the length to the grip, where it's useless and taken it away from the barrel, where it would do some good.

Have you ever tried to move in a confined space with a long barrel? Short barrel even with a full stock is easier to manage.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

So could I, being 18, buy a Mossberg 500 PGO shotgun that is new, add a birds head grip to it, than reduce the barrel length to a minimun 26" OAL and stay legal?

 

[Sam1911]

Hmmm... I think the problem is that it is legal for someone under 21 to buy a rifle or shotgun. I think the "no handguns under 21" prohibition extends to "Other" firearms as well. So buying the PGO shotgun would not be legal until you're 21.

I'll have to look into that.

 

[nalioth]

Hmmm... I think the problem is that it is legal for someone under 21 to buy a rifle or shotgun. I think the "no handguns under 21" prohibition extends to "Other" firearms as well. So buying the PGO shotgun would not be legal until you're 21.

I'll have to look into that.

If FIVETWOSEVEN buys a PGO shotty from a private citizen, he's g2g (depending on his state/local laws, of course)

 

[Sam1911]

Ah, of course. I'm not to the bottom of the first cup 'o joe yet this morning!

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

What about shortening the barrel? Is that legal?

 

[Sam1911]

If you own a PGO, the ATF current interpretation is that you can take the barrel down until you hit the 26" overall limit. It has to have ALWAYS been a PGO, though. Once its had a shoulder stock attached it is, and always will be, a shotgun (not an "other") and would need to be registered as an SBS to take the barrel below 18".

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Alright, next time I swing by the gunshop I'll ask about the PGO Mossberg 500 if it would be legal for me to buy.

 

[Sam1911]

Make sure your dealer is viewing this clearly. Some dealers do not realize that PGO shotguns should be sold as "other" firearms, not shotguns. If he sells it as a shotgun, you lose at least some aspect of "proof" that you've not created an unregistered SBR. In actuality, that 4473 form doesn't prove much -- but someone reviewing the matter later might use the "shotgun" listing on the form as an indication that you haven't followed the rules.

This is RIGHT on the line, so to speak, and you might want to have a printout of the ATF letter with that gun at all times if you do make one of these "shorty Other" scatter-guns. Most LEOs are very familiar with the idea of a "sawed-off" shotgun, and know they should arrest anyone found with one. VERY few are going to take your word for it that it's all o.k. because this is not really a shotgun!

 

[nalioth]

Alright, next time I swing by the gunshop I'll ask about the PGO Mossberg 500 if it would be legal for me to buy

As has been said, it is illegal for anyone under 21 to buy a PGO shotty (or stripped receiver) from an FFL holder. Even if the dealer mistakenly sells it to you, its still an illegal transaction.