ATF proposes to reclassify M855/SS109 green tip as armor-piercing ammo

[Bartholomew Roberts]

http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/fi..._primarily_intended_for_sporting_purposes.pdf

Short version: 5.56 green tip ammo will be reclassified as armor-piercing. Possession is not illegal; but sale or manufacture will be.

 

[hatt]

A lot of drivel. In all those pages I would have liked them to tell about the .223/5.56 rounds which will not easily penetrate soft armor. Or how M855 penetrates quality Level III or IV armor.

 

[jlr1962]

My ar dislikes that ammo. Good riddance.

 

[Trent]

I submitted written testimony to the BATFE committee in 2012 when this issue came up originally, as SS109 has a particularly valuable sporting purpose for the NRA High Power events I run. (It's good ammo, and plenty accurate enough to shoot in matches).

Some relevent key points from those people who don't want to read the whole thing:

To ensure consistency, upon final implementation of the sporting purpose framework outlined above, ATF must withdraw the exemptions for 5.56 mm “green tip” ammunition, including both the SS109 and M855 cartridges.

ATF recognizes that this ammunition is widely available to the public. Because it is legally permissible to possess armor piercing ammunition under current law, withdrawing the exemption will not place individuals in criminal possession of armor piercing ammunition. However, with few exceptions, manufacturers will be unable to produce such armor piercing ammunition, importers will be unable to import such ammunition, and manufacturers and importers will be prohibited from selling or distributing the ammunition.

Some ammunition that was previously exempted as “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes,” specifically 5.56mm constituent projectiles of SS109 and M855 cartridges, will again be regulated as “armor piercing ammunition.” Except as provided by law, no person may manufacture or import such ammunition, and manufacturers or importers may not sell or deliver such ammunition. ATF will maintain the exemption for 30-06 M2AP cartridges.

They banned reloading it too. (Tons of green tip pull downs in circulation)

 

[barnbwt]

My ar dislikes that ammo. Good riddance.

Well bully for you. Jeez, some people

I seem to recall this floated as the "next step" when 7n6 was banned a while back (destroying millions of dollars of AK74 owner's value I might add), and many said it wouldn't/couldn't be done, just as people had said prior to that about the 7n6 diameter being too small to be subject to the law (and jacket spec being outside it as well, if memory serves)

Just one more inch, and they'll finally stop...just one more inch...

TCB

 

[Trent]

My ar dislikes that ammo. Good riddance.

???

So because it doesn't work well in your gun, and you're fine with the government unilaterally saying that we mere peasants aren't trustworthy enough to use it, and banning it from general use and sale?

I guess my retort to that is "I'm glad you have an AR and not just a shotgun", with that sort of mentality.

"Glad they banned it because I didn't like those stupid plastic black rifles."

(See the similarity in your attitude to Fudd-ism now?)

 

[Trent]

SONOFA...

That now makes SS109/M855 felony territory in Illinois.

Illinois bans armor piercing ammunition EXCEPT ammunition that has been issued a sporting purpose clause.

(720 ILCS 5/24-2.1) (from Ch. 38, par. 24-2.1)
Sec. 24-2.1. Unlawful use of firearm projectiles.
"Armor piercing bullet" means any handgun bullet or handgun ammunition with projectiles or projectile cores constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium, or fully jacketed bullets larger than 22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25% of the total weight of the projectile, and excluding those handgun projectiles whose cores are composed of soft materials such as lead or lead alloys, zinc or zinc alloys, frangible projectiles designed primarily for sporting purposes, and any other projectiles or projectile cores that the U. S. Secretary of the Treasury finds to be primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes or industrial purposes or that otherwise does not constitute "armor piercing ammunition" as that term is defined by federal law.

(d) Sentence. A person convicted of unlawful use of armor piercing bullets shall be guilty of a Class 3 felony.

This might affect other states, too, which have verbiage in there to interact with Federal law.

ETA: Ammo manufacturer FFL's are exempted from the law I cited above; as are LEO

(b) Exemptions. This Section does not apply to or affect any of the following:
(1) Peace officers.
(2) Wardens, superintendents and keepers of prisons,

penitentiaries, jails and other institutions for the detention of persons accused or convicted of an offense.
(3) Members of the Armed Services or Reserve Forces

of the United States or the Illinois National Guard while in the performance of their official duties.
(4) Federal officials required to carry firearms,

while engaged in the performance of their official duties.
(5) United States Marshals, while engaged in the

performance of their official duties.
(6) Persons licensed under federal law to manufacture, import, or sell firearms and firearm ammunition, and actually engaged in any such business, but only with respect to activities which are within the lawful scope of such business, such as the manufacture, transportation, or testing of such bullets or ammunition.
This exemption does not authorize the general private possession of any armor piercing bullet, dragon's breath shotgun shell, bolo shell, or flechette shell, but only such possession and activities which are within the lawful scope of a licensed business described in this paragraph.

(7) Laboratories having a department of forensic ballistics or specializing in the development of ammunition or explosive ordnance.
(8) Manufacture, transportation, or sale of armor piercing bullets, dragon's breath shotgun shells, bolo shells, or flechette shells to persons specifically authorized under paragraphs (1) through (7) of this subsection to possess such bullets or shells.

 

[RX-178]

A key thing to be highlighted.

VI. PUBLIC PARTICIPATION
ATF will carefully consider all comments, as appropriate, received on or before
March 16, 2015, and will give comments received after that date the same consideration if it is practical to do so, but assurance of consideration cannot be given except as to comments received on or before March 16, 2015. ATF will not acknowledge receipt of comments.

Submit comments in any of three ways (but do not submit the same comments multiple times or by more than one method):

ATF website: [email protected]
Follow the instructions for submitting comments.

Fax:
(202) 648-9741.

Mail: Denise Brown, Mailstop 6N-602, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Enforcement Programs and Services, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, 99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226: ATTN: AP Ammo Comments

Please make use of it

 

[Trent]

Yes definitely, we need to burn up the reams of paper on this.

Paging HSO or any other mod, can you move this thread to Activism?

 

[Trent]

I'm inferring from this statement:

ATF will accept comments for 30 days from the date this notification, which will be considered prior to finalizing the framework

Along with the date they give of March 16, that they will finalize the framework they are proposing shortly after March 16.

This means we're looking at a (highly probable) ban on SS109/XM855 around late March or early April.

I hope enough people write in. I've been posting the contents of post #8 on various pro-gun social media sites as follows:

Write the ATF asking that they do NOT ban SS109/M855 ammunition (the ban is pending to happen in March).

This is ammunition that many high power shooters use in across the course matches.

BE POLITE AND EXPLAIN YOU USE THIS AMMUNITION FOR SHOOTING RIFLE MATCHES.

ATF will carefully consider all comments, as appropriate, received on or before March 16, 2015, and will give comments received after that date the same consideration if it is practical to do so, but assurance of consideration cannot be given except as to comments received on or before March 16, 2015. ATF will not acknowledge receipt of comments.

Submit comments in any of three ways (but do not submit the same comments multiple times or by more than one method):

ATF website: [email protected]

(Follow the instructions for submitting comments.)

Fax: (202) 648-9741.

Mail: Denise Brown, Mailstop 6N-602, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Enforcement Programs and Services, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, 99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226: ATTN: AP Ammo Comments

The link to the full proposed armor piercing reclassification framework is available here:

http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/fi..._primarily_intended_for_sporting_purposes.pdf

 

[Arizona_Mike]

I don't understand why SS109 would need an exemption in the first place as the core is not entirely steel.

Mike

 

[Trent]

The innermost part is the core... the core is steel. Doesn't matter what wraps around it; whether lead, copper, combination thereof.

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron,
brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium; or

[RESIZE=150] [/RESIZE]

Technically speaking SS109 has two cores - steel core in front, lead behind.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

That 2-core interpretation would render the meaning of "entirely" in the statute redundant, which is not an honest reading.

Mike

 

[Trent]

I would completely agree with you Mike.

Apparently the ATF does not.

We need to write some more letters.... and cross our fingers.

 

[Trent]

There's one other possible mode of action here, but it doesn't stand a snowballs chance in Hades.

That other mode of action would be to get the AP law changed on the Federal level. That'd take a heck of a lot of lobbying and pressure, and even if the effort were to be put in, it'd ultimately fail when it hits Obama's desk.

But, things take time, and if that lobbying starts now, in a couple years if the fates favor us maybe we'd get a different head honcho in the oval office who is more sympathetic to sportsmen.

For now the only thing to do is write letters.

The NRA tried to rally people to write letters back in 2012 when this nonsense started;

https://www.nraila.org/articles/201...to-armor-piercing-ammunition-law-until-dec-31

They also testified representing the firearms industry.

Last week, BATFE met separately with gun control activist groups, firearm industry groups, and groups representing hunters and other gun owners. The latter meeting included the NRA; Safari Club International; representatives of state wildlife agencies; and firearm and ammunition importers.

Their stance was pretty firm; they even implied that there would be a lawsuit following an adverse decision.

NRA cautioned the BATFE against interpreting the law in a manner more restrictive than Congress intended.

 

[lilguy]

What would we be left with, you can't shoot lead bullets in these guns with guaranteed reliability.

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

The administration is trying to prevent that which - if they continue on their present course - they are making necessary. The very essence of the Second Amendment is to prevent government from standing in the way of the power we need to keep feral government at bay, humble, and subservient to We the People.

The Second Amendment is also a warning to any potential feral government. If the Second Amendment is abided by one and all, the potential number of lives saved will be in the millions, for it would likely cost millions of lives to preserve our rights and freedoms from those who would attempt to scuttle those rights and freedoms for their own nefarious desires.

Write those letters, make a few calls, and don't be afraid to exercise your freedom of speech in telling those in government where you stand in the right and where they stand in servitude. This is a constituted republic, after all. They have power - only the power - we granted them in the Constitution, and each and every one of us are no less one of We the People who wrote and ratified the Constitution, and only We the People have power over the Constitution via the amendment process. I can find no clause in or amendment to the Constitution that allows the government to trample on our rights, freedoms, and our pursuit of property, happiness, and security as it has already done in so many ways.

Soon, government will break that glass ceiling over those abuses that are beyond "light and transient causes" if it remains on its current course. The better prepared you are, the less likely the light and transient causes will become a danger to us.

Don't argue their reasoning. Make them defend their assault on your Right to Keep and Bear Arms and the danger of subjecting you to slavery they will place you under should they succeed even in the slightest. They are not concerned with you being armed with ammo that will penetrate the body armor of law enforcement. They are concerned with you having ammo that will penetrate their own armor.

There is a nefarious reason they want you disarmed. We the People don't want to be disarmed because of those reasons those who have made their way into government wish to impose. We said it plain and simple in the Constitution.

Woody

 

[joem1945]

"ATF will carefully consider all comments, as appropriate, received on or before March 16, 2015, and will give comments received after that date the same consideration if it is practical to do so."

And then they (ATF) will do whatever they want.

 

[Trent]

"ATF will carefully consider all comments, as appropriate, received on or before March 16, 2015, and will give comments received after that date the same consideration if it is practical to do so."

And then they (ATF) will do whatever they want.

Yeah, pretty much.

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

"ATF will carefully consider all comments, as appropriate, received on or before March 16, 2015, and will give comments received after that date the same consideration if it is practical to do so."

And then they (ATF) will do whatever they want.

More like what Obama and his ilk want.

Woody

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Hmm . . . RRA goes after anything lead and the ATF goes after anything not lead ...

I needed to stock up on 855 anyway. 6 420rd cans inbound.

Mike

 

[hso]

BATFE isn't reclassifying this as AP, they're proposing to remove the exemption to SS109/M855 under LEOPA. An important distinction and much easier to address. Thanks to Trent we now have a thread in Activism with an outline of a plan of action to oppose BATFE removing the exemption from LEOPA. That means we make rational and dispassionate comments to BATFE during the comment period AND we hit our Congress Critters with requests to oppose the BATFE on this. We also want to have someone in Congress put a bill in the pipeline to specifically remove this ammunition from consideration as AP so that BATFE bows up and waits to see what happens to the bill. They'll extend their comment period probably to 90 days if we complain enough and demand that 30 is too short. They'll certainly act to pull back if there's a bill in Congress on this, as they've done before.

 

[Trent]

Thanks to HSO for consolidating and expanding on a lot of the sentiments in this thread. There's some very good material he wrote in the thread in Activism, which is a true eye opener as far as how to combat this proposed ban.

My initial reaction, and pretty much everyone else who uses / shoots this ammo on a regular basis, is to get angry and upset, and we see that reflected clearly in this thread. (I am no exception to this, as in Illinois we have a particularly nasty problem with this possession of this ammo then being potentially a Class 3 Felony, very soon).

The activism thread that was started needs to remain calm and civil. The NRA-ILA made a press release today that has or will show up on over 4.2 million gun owners news feeds on social media.

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150213/batfe-to-ban-common-ar-15-ammo

That's a fantastic start - if 1% of those people write letters to the ATF, they'll need a semi truck to deliver the mail!

Please DO go and encourage other gun owners to write in to the ATF, but please remind them to use a civil tone and be polite. It does no one any good to be confrontational over this, even though there is cause to be angry and upset, the only way to possibly convince them that they're making a mistake (or compounding a mistake they already made, in this case), is to be civil!

As AzMike and others have pointed out, for years, SS109/M855 SHOULD NOT qualify to be considered as an armor piercing projectile by the very definition of the law as a full 2/3's of the core of the projectile is lead, and it does not meet the "entirely" wording of the law! (Regardless of whether it is considered a handgun cartridge)

Finally, no matter how the ban goes, or doesn't go, remember that the only TRUE solution to this ongoing issue which was started so long ago by the "cop killer bullet" craze/myth from decades ago, is to get the actual law changed or removed, as it is written it does not make any sense whatsoever, and does not reflect scientific fact. The law has not served a public safety interest, never has, and never will. It started only as a knee jerk reaction to a non-problem, and doesn't serve the public interests.

 

[Welding Rod]

The core issue is that the 2A has nothing to do with sporting purposes and to entertain an argument based on "sporting purposes" is a losing proposition.

 

[Deaf Smith]

And does not the 2nd Amendment say you have both the rights to guns AND ammunition?

And if the current standard military ammo is the 885?

I'd say that's a good way to sue them. Need to find someone who will sell ONE round of ammo, make sure the news papers have the info, and see what the ATF does.

Deaf