ATF Proposing Changes To NFA Gun Trusts

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dc dalton

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Looks like the administration is trying to go after NFA gun trusts:

The Obama administration is working to close a loophole in the nation’s gun laws that allows for some machine guns and sawed-off shotguns to be sold without the buyer submitting fingerprints or photographs.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) is working on a new regulation that would require more background information when the weapons are sold to someone through a corporation or legal trust.

http://thehill.com/blogs/regwatch/pending-regs/318133-white-house-reviewing-draft-gun-control-rule
 
WeedWacker Love the inflammatory language (machine gun, sawed-off shotgun).
Whats inflammatory about machine gun or sawed off shotgun?:scrutiny:

Both are decades old, commonly used names for exactly what they are. And "machine gun" is the term used in the National Firearms Act.
 
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They have to have photographs because otherwise those evil guns might end up in the hands of "members of certain disadvantaged groups". BATFE probably uses the N word, but I won't.

Jim
 
As I understand, the other side of this coin is that there is no longer a CLEO sign-off required for individuals, only that one must forward their info to the CLEO. That is a good thing for individual purchases.

That said, I'd rather see silencers pulled off the NFA altogether.
 
As I understand, the other side of this coin is that there is no longer a CLEO sign-off required for individuals, only that one must forward their info to the CLEO. That is a good thing for individual purchases.

That said, I'd rather see silencers pulled off the NFA altogether.
Silencers were incorporated into the NFA because there were concerns about poaching during the depression.

Yes, Silencers should be pulled off the NFA list as the issue of poaching should be dealt to various State Hunting Laws and enforced by the State Game Wardens rather than the Federal Government.
 
They have been working to change this for a few years now. Its because there is no fingerprinting and pictures taken of the applicants. It wasnt really a problem until people started to realize it was easier to go with a trust, than going with the LEO sign off. I dont see a problem with having the application process be the same no matter which way you go. Removing the LEO sign off makes it fair, because now you dont have the political pressure, and personal opinions of a LEO, keeping a legal citizen from lawfully obtaining a legal device. I didnt read the article, but its been the BATFE that has been pushing for the change.
 
There are a few real detriments -- more correctly "pitfalls."

1) It seems quite easy to end up with a trust which isn't properly set up if you go with the cheap option and use the do-it-yourself electronic trust-maker software. The ATF doesn't check into the legality of your trust when they approve your Form 1 or 4, so there can be a nasty surprise down the road when you find out that your trust isn't a proper legal entity and can't lawfully hold those weapons and you're actually an individual in possession of Title II weapons not registered to YOU.

2) There are very important factors to consider when setting up the trust about what happens to the guns if members of the trust go their separate ways (divorce? someone involved is dis-invited from the group?). Less of an issue if it's just a "trust of one" than if you're adding other members.

And so on. The issues all have to do with making the trust RIGHT, rather than any problems with using a trust in principle.

Read this: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=719848
 
I think it's a positive development. I never liked the NFA trust fad.

You never liked people choosing a different legal avenue for NFA ownership? Why do you think its positive that people are going to have to jump through even more hoops to legally own these weapons?

I'm not looking forward to this being implemented because once it is, I will have to get my entire family fingerprinted just so that if they have access to my weapons outside of my presence, they don't commit a felony.

Something I also don't know how the ATF will address is that certain trusts allow for amendments to the list of trustees. What's to stop someone from submitting the trust with only one person, getting the transfer approved, and then immediately adding others to the list of trustees? Nothing illegal about that and since the trust already owns and possesses the weapon.
 
You never liked people choosing a different legal avenue for NFA ownership?
Woah there... I think he meant he didn't like folks running into the potential (very scary) trouble spots by getting into a gun trust on the cheap. Read post 13.
 
Sam, that's not what I got from his post and his choice to call it the "NFA trust fad".

If he wanted to clarify his position and add something to the effect of your post and say that he thought a lot of people got into the trusts as a quick and easy answer to a complex and legally perilous area of law, and didn't like the fact that it was so easy to get into legal trouble, I wouldn't have posted what I did (hell, I probably would have agreed with him on that point). However he chose not to say anything of that nature, leading me to take his comment the way I did.
 
Woah there... I think he meant he didn't like folks running into the potential (very scary) trouble spots by getting into a gun trust on the cheap. Read post 13.
Thats not how I read it... he even went as far as to call it a 'fad'.

I dont hear any concern for fellow citizens, just something he doesn't like so would like to make illegal :p

Anywho...

Trusts are a good thing to have since multiple people can then 'own' the NFA device. IIRC without a trust set up, you are the only person allowed to touch (let alone use) said NFA item, under penalty of law.
 
Getting ready to go the trust route myself - currently, this lawyer is my baseline (still doing research) - he has some good info on his front page, which he seems to update regularly.
http://johnpierceesq.com/
 
Ok...I can't imagine why anyone would have a "problem" with other gun owners choosing a completely lawful way of doing something, so I have a hard time reading ill intent into his post. But I suppose I could be wrong. I'll let him speak for himself to clear the matter up.
 
My 3 year old is mentioned in my trust. Getting her fingerprints would be a bit of a pain.

I wonder what happen to things already in the process. Perhaps it is time to buy a few more suppressors.
 
I went the individual route with my FA's. Heck, at that time, hardly anyone had even heard of trusts being used for this purpose. I was lucky in that my CLEO would sign. Some would not, and that led to people seeking alternatives, such as judges and DA's, that would sign. Then trusts came along as a means of circumventing the CLEO signature requirement. I'm OK with that.

But recently, the idea of trusts has been oversold, often by lawyers seeking to make an easy buck. One of the purported benefits is passing the guns on to your heirs without an additional transfer approval or tax. But a tax-free transfer to your beneficiary can be done via a Form 5 anyway. A trust is not a substitute for a properly-drawn will.

Another supposed benefit of a trust is that your spouse, children, etc. can have access to the guns in your absence. Do you really want them shooting your FA guns without you being there? As for merely having the guns in the home with the owner away, I've never heard of the ATF making an issue of that. And with the prevalence of divorce these days, having a divorcing spouse as co-trustee on your (very expensive) automatic weapons could really be messy.

If these proposed regulations do away with the CLEO requirement, that should eliminate 95% of the legitimate reasons for having trusts. Not having trustees submit photographs and fingerprints doesn't seem to me to be a legitimate reason for the trusts. It's something that's just begging to be abused, or at least to have the appearance of abuse. Let's keep this thing simple and clean. The last thing we want is further restrictive legislation.
 
Well, there's no reason for bothering with a trust, for THAT purpose, and they'd likely become a whole lot less popular. I believe there are some other grand benefits to a "gun trust" that's set up properly.
 
A very good reason for bothering with a trust is the simple fact that you can authorize others to possess your weapons in your absence. Specifically my son or daughter can take my weapons out and shoot them if I'm not available to go with them. Or my wife, although she has no interest in FA weapons. Too much noise for her.
 
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