Orin
Member
You can forget the NRA's help with this - Unless you can buy the gun at Wal-Mart they don't want to have anything to do with it!! :banghead:
Orin
ATF reverses decision.. Akins Accelerator now MACHINEGUN
- Thread starter CanonNinja
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You can forget the NRA's help with this - Unless you can buy the gun at Wal-Mart they don't want to have anything to do with it!! :banghead:
Orin
No, the law doesn't require grandfathering. Items that are declared illegal to possess will either be surrendered or the individuals prosecuted. The Street Sweepers and USAS-12s were registered as destructive devices because 1) ATFE didn't want the political fallout from confiscation; and 2) registration of destructive devices is still legal. Congress has barred any further registration of civilian owned automatic weapons, so grandfathering is prohibited.
And remember that this isn't a case of something being declared illegal after the fact. ATFE's position is that the items were machineguns when made, and thus were illegal when purchased. The agency just failed to recognize the crime that was being committed.
And remember that this isn't a case of something being declared illegal after the fact. ATFE's position is that the items were machineguns when made, and thus were illegal when purchased. The agency just failed to recognize the crime that was being committed.
PromptCritical
Member
Originally posted by all those who say the Akins was a bad idea:
I'm riding in the front of the bus.
I'm riding in the front of the bus.
Really? So the NRA didn't push to get kill the manufacturer's liability protection bill when the AWB renewal was attached as an amendment? They didn't help at all in convincing Congress not to extend the ban of these weapons, which if memory serves have never been sold in a Wal-Mart?
Orin
Member
Buzz - I was probably a little over the top with the comment regarding the NRA but I really doubt that you'll see them getting involved with this issue.
Have you seen the recent letter from the NRA regarding their thoughts on the ATF? http://www.jpfo.org/alert20061211.htm
Regards,
Orin
Have you seen the recent letter from the NRA regarding their thoughts on the ATF? http://www.jpfo.org/alert20061211.htm
Regards,
Orin
Keith Wheeler
Member
You're joking, right? This is an agency that has had people arrested and tried for a federal felony that carries a 10 year imprisonment and $250k fine for having a broken AR-15.
Count me as one of those that says "pay heed ye of the NRA that turn a blind eye to the NFA, for what has happened to us shall happen to your hunting rifle."
Please note: I'm not saying "the NRA is bad". But lets be honest here. The NRA avoids dealing with the whole NFA issue. Sure, they have a right to choose their battles. But the NRA has never been the friend of "stamp collectors". No, they're not the enemy either. But ignoring NFA issues, IMHO, is paving the path for the restriction of all semi autos.
Does the NRA have an official policy statement with regards to the NFA and private ownership of NFA items?
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Outlaws
Member
I hope the company goes out of business just because his product was over priced. Nothing wrong with a little markup, but its a stock when you cut to the chase. Even the highest quality wood stocks for a 10/22 sell for $500. So this is a plastic stock(most of those are like under $200 retail), with 2 rails and a spring. Yep, gotta sell it for $1000.
And to all the people that can't read posts before commenting on a post, I already said it doesn't fit the NFA definition. But my point was that for all intended purpose, it is a machine gun. See, there was only one real basic principle to the operation of a machine gun in 1934, and that is what got tossed into the law. But people are smart and think outside the box. If someone said a train was defined as a multiple box cars pulled with a metal coupler that connects with a C shaped hook, then would we not call any future trains "trains" if someone devised a magnetic system to replace the metal coupler?
Look, the spring this guy added AUTOMATICALLY pushes the trigger INTO your finger FOR YOU. Its two ways to get to the same place, just like there is more than one way to skin a cat.
And to all the people that can't read posts before commenting on a post, I already said it doesn't fit the NFA definition. But my point was that for all intended purpose, it is a machine gun. See, there was only one real basic principle to the operation of a machine gun in 1934, and that is what got tossed into the law. But people are smart and think outside the box. If someone said a train was defined as a multiple box cars pulled with a metal coupler that connects with a C shaped hook, then would we not call any future trains "trains" if someone devised a magnetic system to replace the metal coupler?
Look, the spring this guy added AUTOMATICALLY pushes the trigger INTO your finger FOR YOU. Its two ways to get to the same place, just like there is more than one way to skin a cat.
Lucky
Member
Prince Yamato said:
I hope you don't load your magazines fully, but leave a few cartridges out so as not to 'push the limits'.
I think you should thank this guy, he's the front-line in your fight, and if he loses then the line gets re-drawn. And when the next guy gets in trouble, and you don't support him, the line will get re-drawn again. It's really very very predictable.
Outlaws said:
Dude, do us a favour and re-write the law the way you see it in your head. Now look at what you've written, and realize that it makes bump-firing illegal.
And with regular bump-firing it's muscle-tension that AUTOMATICALLY pushes the trigger INTO your finger FOR YOU.
Ergo every rifle that can be bump-fired is a machine gun. If you attached a spring from your torso to the handguard, it would do the same thing as the illegal machine gun Akins stock. Ergo if you use your muscles to replace the spring, you're trying to circumvent the spirit of the definition of machine gun.
No mercy for you! Your SKS is a machine gun, turn it over felon!
I've read the letter. And the letter is spot on given that the NRA has been trying to work with the system as is, recognizing that the best that can be achieved is getting ATFE reigned in, not eliminated.
You need to understand that right now, there is a major turf war going on between pro-RKBA organizations. Instead of getting members to work with all the organizations, some are trying to drum up support by drumming on the NRA. "Flock to us and we will protect you" is the cry, yet these organizations haven't done much protecting, at least not in comparison to the NRA.
JPFO does a lot of good, as does the NRA. Unfortunately, both of them screw up at times, and the current grudge match going on is not particularly helpful.
As for NFA items, there is an organization (whose name escapes me) that has been fighting the NFA battle for a while and being quite successful, including making ATFE back down on some issues, and working with ATFE to get others resolved. Hopefully, they will get involved.
As stated above, based on your usage of the term, every weapon which can be bumpfired (including a Mateba revolver) would constitute a machine gun. So, do you really want to keep arguing for an expansion of the term that would ban all autoloading weapons . . . and even one type of revolver?
Machine gun is a term of art, just like "assault weapon." Items that do not meet the legal description do not fit within the category. I presume that you do not own any firearms made during the AWB era that had cosmetic changes to get around the ban. If you did during the ban, how dare you risk all our rights by circumventing the AWB!
Keith Wheeler
Member
There are guns that function only in semi-auto that the ATF has declared to "readily convertible" to full-auto, so, they too, are "machine guns". Even though as built they will only fire one shot per trigger pull.
In addition to showing ignorance of the wide array of fully automatic weaponry available by 1934, from submachine-guns to automatic cannon, you are failing to see the the danger in the ATF constantly declaring more and more items that aren't machine guns as being them. Eventually if you own a semi-auto and a dremel tool it will be possible to find you guilty of "constructive possession" of a machine gun. By kowtowing to their heavy handed intrepretations of the law you are making it more likely that they declare anything that "could" be a machinegun as one.
Perhaps what you are claiming is rational, if you accept the current state of the law as rational, but think about where you could be steering the entire RKBA.
Outlaws
Member
Yes, muscle tension is what seperates it from the spring which makes it into a machine.
DoubleTapDrew
Member
I'm surprised at the number of people here that are agreeing with the ATF.
The ATF also decided the Akins violated the "spirit" of the law (keeping MG's out of the hands of us peons).
I guess we'll have to start registering our fingers or turn them in since "single function of the trigger" should now be changed to "single function of the finger" by you people.
The ATF also decided the Akins violated the "spirit" of the law (keeping MG's out of the hands of us peons).
I guess we'll have to start registering our fingers or turn them in since "single function of the trigger" should now be changed to "single function of the finger" by you people.
Outlaws
Member
Some of "you people" need to pull your head out of the sand and see that I didn't say the ATF was a good thing. I merely stated that this guy found a new way to make a firearm fully automatic.
Cut my fingers off if you want, but leave the middle one so your guys have something to look at.
Cut my fingers off if you want, but leave the middle one so your guys have something to look at.
dave_pro2a
Member
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2006
- Messages
- 447
Damn batfe apologists. 
Now that I read the FAQ for atkins. They found a loophole. It's a legal loophole, but it's a loophole none the less. It defeats the whole purpose of having the law in the first place. It's the NFAs fault for ever giving the go ahead in the first place. What a big mess....
This is about what is to come. The Dems are back, and they are going to go after every firearm they can. The Dems passed the first firearms laws in the south after 1865. They have for years had a plank in their party platform on this issue. If you think they are not a danger you have been asleep for most of your life.
Pres. Johnson a rabid antiguner passed the first mean bills in 1968. He saved the usless Alcohol Tobacco Tax cops by adding firearms to their duty. They were in the process of being disbanded at the time. Pres. Carter, Clinton, well you should know about them. They were all Southern Liberals from the new South?? If you add the Northern Libs. Shumer and his kind, and you don't think the Dems are danger. That light in the tunnel is a train.
Pres. Johnson a rabid antiguner passed the first mean bills in 1968. He saved the usless Alcohol Tobacco Tax cops by adding firearms to their duty. They were in the process of being disbanded at the time. Pres. Carter, Clinton, well you should know about them. They were all Southern Liberals from the new South?? If you add the Northern Libs. Shumer and his kind, and you don't think the Dems are danger. That light in the tunnel is a train.
dave_pro2a
Member
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2006
- Messages
- 447
"Loophole" is a term/tool of the antis to pass more restrictive laws. http://www.flashbunny.org/content/loophole.html
Akins took advantage of no loophole. There was no section of law/code that enabled them to legally create a machine gun even though the creation of a machine guns is against the law. All they did was invent a device that enables a semi-automatic rifle to fire at a fast rate, while OBEYING all aspects of the law (full trigger reset between shots).
.gov cannot say 'you violated the spirit of the law.' That is total bs. What they really mean is that we regret doing such a crappy job writing the law, so instead of adhering to just, due process we're just going to enforce the law as we wished we had written it. That means we might enforce it one way this month, and a different way next month. No you can't anticipate how we'll enforce it, sorry, that's because we've abandoned following the actual letter of the law.
Don't buy into this loophole crap. Next you'll be saying "gee, maybe there is something to this gunshow loophole stuff that Feinswien and the brady camp always talks about." Don't think like an anti.
Akins took advantage of no loophole. There was no section of law/code that enabled them to legally create a machine gun even though the creation of a machine guns is against the law. All they did was invent a device that enables a semi-automatic rifle to fire at a fast rate, while OBEYING all aspects of the law (full trigger reset between shots).
.gov cannot say 'you violated the spirit of the law.' That is total bs. What they really mean is that we regret doing such a crappy job writing the law, so instead of adhering to just, due process we're just going to enforce the law as we wished we had written it. That means we might enforce it one way this month, and a different way next month. No you can't anticipate how we'll enforce it, sorry, that's because we've abandoned following the actual letter of the law.
Don't buy into this loophole crap. Next you'll be saying "gee, maybe there is something to this gunshow loophole stuff that Feinswien and the brady camp always talks about." Don't think like an anti.
cslinger
Member
Nice attitude. Lets wish ill will on the company and folks just because of his pricing. Lets not consider research and development, BATFE examinations, labor, parts, and the fact that it is a very niche product. Besides if the product really was overpriced it simply wouldn't sell, its not like he was selling insulin. Geez gun folks really are a fragmented group. No wonder we cannot get anywhere.
Once again I cannot understand how people can not see that one day a ruling like this, will come back to bite every gun owner. Maybe not now, maybe not in 10 years but eventually if we allow creative interpretation of law it will come back to bite us. It is not different then me going to get a drivers license, passing my tests, getting my license, driving for a year and then having the state say.....on second thought we don't think you should have passed those tests, so no more driving for you. Turn in your keys.
Disgusts me actually.
Outlaws
Member
Our government spends all day everyday banning stuff. Its all gonna get banned sooner or later, and the sooner the government gets around to a flat out gun ban the sooner we can get down to business. (insert revolution icon)
Machine gun is a term defined by LAW.
The BATFE cannot make up a regulation to define 'machine gun' as they did to define the term 'pistol' for implementing the NFA and GCA.
Machine gun has been defined in Federal law since 1934 and even since 1932 when dealing with Washington DC
The BATFE cannot make up a regulation to define 'machine gun' as they did to define the term 'pistol' for implementing the NFA and GCA.
Machine gun has been defined in Federal law since 1934 and even since 1932 when dealing with Washington DC
EasternShore
Member
Definition of a machine:
http://m-w.com/dictionary/machine
.govs exact wording:
b) Machinegun
The term ``machinegun'' means any weapon which shoots, is designed
to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than
one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.
The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon,
any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of
parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a
machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be
assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a
person.
Ok I am gonna get flamed here but Outlaw has been right all along. Under the wording of the law the original interpertation of the NFA was incorrect. Read the bold again.
read it again aloud...
now muscle tension does not count as a part of a modification or conversion. However setting a firearm in a new part (ie stock) with parts to increase the rate of fire and only have the operator of the weapon make one movement means, machine.
This does not mean semi-automatics will get banned. It means a HUMAN OR HUMANS made a mistake on the original decsion.
But I guess on THR no mistake has ever been made.
http://m-w.com/dictionary/machine
.govs exact wording:
b) Machinegun
The term ``machinegun'' means any weapon which shoots, is designed
to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than
one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.
The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon,
any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of
parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a
machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be
assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a
person.
Ok I am gonna get flamed here but Outlaw has been right all along. Under the wording of the law the original interpertation of the NFA was incorrect. Read the bold again.
read it again aloud...
now muscle tension does not count as a part of a modification or conversion. However setting a firearm in a new part (ie stock) with parts to increase the rate of fire and only have the operator of the weapon make one movement means, machine.
This does not mean semi-automatics will get banned. It means a HUMAN OR HUMANS made a mistake on the original decsion.
But I guess on THR no mistake has ever been made.
EasternShore
Member
My post is two parts, first technical definitions.
Second, everyone has been comdemning the ATF and Outlaw for his posts in saying that the ATF was right to reverse it's position.
In reading the definitions one can see that there is a vague and broad wording in the second part of the definition of a machine gun in the NFA. This is common in most laws and allows for interpretation from time to time.
While I don't like it this is the truth of the matter. The ATF like any other organization or individual can change it's mind from time to time without changing laws or regulations.
My interpretation of the wording of the law and the physical action of firing the AA device is that it falls in the second part of the definition and has from day one. The ATFs original interpretation was incorrect.
Second, everyone has been comdemning the ATF and Outlaw for his posts in saying that the ATF was right to reverse it's position.
In reading the definitions one can see that there is a vague and broad wording in the second part of the definition of a machine gun in the NFA. This is common in most laws and allows for interpretation from time to time.
While I don't like it this is the truth of the matter. The ATF like any other organization or individual can change it's mind from time to time without changing laws or regulations.
My interpretation of the wording of the law and the physical action of firing the AA device is that it falls in the second part of the definition and has from day one. The ATFs original interpretation was incorrect.
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