Auto Sears, Auto Hammers: Are they illegal to possess?

[PILMAN]

Is it illegal to have possession of Auto hammers or the auto sears? I've noticed that a number of kits come with these parts and I was wondering if the mere possession of them was infact illegal or only if the parts were used in the gun? I've also seen them on gunbroker, the only thing I could find was this on the ar15 website

Due mostly to ignorance on the part of dealers and the general public, there are many rifles out there that are violating the law unknowingly. Most will have a couple of parts, and though the rifle will not be capable of full-auto fire, will still be in violation of the law. It is important to check your rifles and those you consider purchasing, since the penalties can be harsh:

From: [49 U.S.C. 781-788, 26 U.S.C. 5861, 26 U.S.C. 5872]

Violators may be fined not more than $250,000, and imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both. In addition, any vessel, vehicle or aircraft used to transport, conceal or possess an unregistered NFA firearm is subject to seizure and forfeiture, as is the weapon itself.

 

[30 cal slob]

parts alone ok, IIRC.

if you have the auto sear and a gun that it drops into, that's a no-no.

 

[Chipperman]

ATF is full of conflicting rulings and has even changed their minds many times (e.g. shoe lace= machine gun).

The safest thing is to not possess ANY full-auto parts if you don't have a legal machine gun.

In realistic terms, you are probably going to be fine if you just have a full-auto hammer or bolt in your AR but no sear hole.

 

[oobray]

From what I have read, and been told by officials, if you have the parts capable of making an NFA prohibited item, and there is no other ostensable use for those parts but to make a prohibited item then you are in violation. So in your case, if you own the firearm that the hammer and sear are supposed to fit, and you own the two previously mentioned parts, I believe you are in violation. Although I can't exactly find where it says that in the US Code. It might have come from case law. I believe this is called "constructive possession".

 

[Crunker1337]

I think that you can be charged with "constructive possession".

Same way if you have a GLOCK pistol and a stock for it that's not attached, but not a 16" barrel.

 

[TexasRifleman]

listic terms, you are probably going to be fine if you just have a full-auto hammer or bolt in your AR but no sear hole.

There are several letters from tech branch of ATF saying that a full auto Bolt Carrier BY ITSELF in an AR is not a problem. Many people prefer them for one reason or another.

Fire control group parts however don't really have any other purpose so it would be very bad mojo.

I have a Registered Lightning Link and when it's installed in my AR I can do pretty much anything; short barrel, mess with the FCG, whatever because when the RLL is installed in a host gun, that gun becomes a machine gun, legally.

If I remove the RLL then the gun must have all the auto FCG parts and a 16+ barrel re-installed, even though I continue to have possession of the RLL and it will only work in one of my ARs.

Now, because of that I do have possession of short barrels that have no host rifle, but that's not constructive intent since I have a legitimate use for them (Contender case cleared that one up) but if I had auto parts, short barrels, and no legal use for them I'd be toast.

 

[Grandpa Shooter]

In Az a few years ago they arrested a group of people who enjoyed shooting together and found a part that could have been used to turn a firearm to full auto and possession of it was listed on the charges brought against them. Can be if the Feds decide to push their issue.

 

[mpmarty]

Grandpa shooter if that's the case, I could be arrested for having the pop tab off a soda can as I also have some M1 Carbines.

 

[Chipperman]

I've seen ATF letters that people have posted asking specifically about certain FCG components, and they have been told that a full-auto hammer without any other full-auto parts is ok.

Again, the safest thing would be to cut the hook off the back of the hammer is you are using a full-auto hammer in a semi-auto gun.

My M16 is a registered receiver, so I don't have the worry of changing parts out. On the downside, I cannot have multiple hosts like you can with a RLL or RDIAS.

 

[PILMAN]

What about for a unassembled gun though? For example say you order a receiver and a parts kit and the parts kit came with those parts and you were wanting to mail out the kit and the receiver to a builder to get the gun built?

 

[TexasRifleman]

For example say you order a receiver and a parts kit and the parts kit came with those parts and you were wanting to mail out the kit and the receiver to a builder to get the gun built?

I would not want to be in possession of ANY full auto parts if I did not own at least one legal NFA weapon that could use them. Period.

 

[redneckrepairs]

All i can do is state my understanding , and that is that one must never possess a combination of parts that will " easily " make a gun a machine gun . So i wouldnt possess both a " lightning link " or an " auto sear " and an ar at the same time tho in fact you can own a full set of m16 parts , as long as you dont own an ar , just where the line is is not clear , and if you are a collector i have to say dont own anything ( including shoe strings of clothes hangers ) that can convert your gun to full auto . If you own such devisive property and you are searched you are likely to be charged .

 

[Grandpa Shooter]

Grandpa shooter if that's the case, I could be arrested for having the pop tab off a soda can as I also have some M1 Carbines

Has it not occured to you that the reason when you ask what you suppose is a "simple" question and what you get is a dozen different answers from well intentioned and well informed individuals, is expressly because the laws were written not to make anything clear, but rather to create an opportunity for different interpretations by the Feds? This group in Az. was charged with being an organized "militia" group and when their houses were searched, everything that could be used to stack the charges was confiscated. If you care to, you could search under "Viper" militia for further information.

 

[Zoogster]

If you were arrested (even illegaly) and were found to have auto sears even for weapons you do not possess you can be sure that the story leaked to the news would mention "Parts for converting semi auto weapons into full autos, multiple firearms etc...confiscated as evidence" Implying even without expressly stating that you were in the process of illegaly manufacturing full auto weapons even if the firearms and parts you legaly possessed did not go together.
In fact that would become most people's general understanding of the case unless they were intimately involved in it themselves.

The ATF can also create its own laws as it desires through its ability to interpret and re-interpret laws/statutes.
As grandpa shooter said, the laws are intentionaly designed grey enough that the feds can interprete them widely enough to suite any purpose.

There have been cases where the feds have raided someone's place, taken some parts and not others and then returned at a later date for another raid and charged someone for constructive possession because the lacked parts taken on another day. If for example a stock with a pistol and a 16" barrel were all legal, but they took the 16" barrel on the raid the day prior. Now imagine if they took you into custody and you did not even know what they took. Then they raided the next day and charged like your wife( or someone else that lives in the home) for constructive possession which the feds created by taking some items and not others on a previous day. (It would still have been the responsibility of the indivual in possession to make things legal before they were raided again 24 hours later.)Then made a deal with her to drop the felony constructive possession charge she actualy is guilty of because of that, if she agrees to help prosecute you. Otherwise she is going to lose custody of her children, go to jail..etc etc. They play families and friends against eachother in just those kinds of ways.

Of course you could argue the unfairness of it all, but you better hope you have a lot of spare cash for a good lawyer. Of course they could also charge you with something to sieze/freeze your assets for being illegaly involved in smuggling or other criminal behavior (doesn't have to be true) and prevent you from funding your defense altogether.

 

[precisionshootist]

The ATF can also create its own laws as it desires through its ability to interpret and re-interpret laws/statutes.
As grandpa shooter said, the laws are intentionaly designed grey enough that the feds can interprete them widely enough to suite any purpose.

There have been cases where the feds have raided someone's place, taken some parts and not others and then returned at a later date for another raid and charged someone for constructive possession because the lacked parts taken on another day. If for example a stock with a pistol and a 16" barrel were all legal, but they took the 16" barrel on the raid the day prior. Now imagine if they took you into custody and you did not even know what they took. Then they raided the next day and charged like your wife( or someone else that lives in the home) for constructive possession which the feds created by taking some items and not others on a previous day. (It would still have been the responsibility of the indivual in possession to make things legal before they were raided again 24 hours later.)Then made a deal with her to drop the felony constructive possession charge she actualy is guilty of because of that, if she agrees to help prosecute you. Otherwise she is going to lose custody of her children, go to jail..etc etc. They play families and friends against eachother in just those kinds of ways.

Of course you could argue the unfairness of it all, but you better hope you have a lot of spare cash for a good lawyer. Of course they could also charge you with something to sieze/freeze your assets for being illegaly involved in smuggling or other criminal behavior (doesn't have to be true) and prevent you from funding your defense altogether.

Ok lets just go ahead a say it, the term JBT as applied to the BATFE is accurate and well deserved.

 

[revjen45]

In WA State it is illegal to possess any FA parts.

 

[MudPuppy]

Is it illegal to have possession of Auto hammers or the auto sears?

You'd have to ask the ATF--we can all guess, offer our opinions, etc. The ATF has the answer as it's not clear to anyone but them. (Except in WA, where it is clear.)

 

[EricTheBarbarian]

You'd have to ask the ATF

Im not sure thats a good idea. If you talk to two different people from the ATF you are likely to get two different awnsers. If they want them to be illegal, they are.

 

[TacMedic4450]

So let me ask you this - Why is it that when a weapon becomes a "machine gun" all of the other NFA rules stop applying i.e. barrel length etc. but if you register a SBR under the NFA the other rules still apply i.e. an auto sear? Shouldnt two different clases of weapons FA and SBR that require the same tax and procedures have the same rules governing modifications?

 

[TexasRifleman]

So let me ask you this -

Unfortunately you are trying to find some logical argument in something that has no logic.

 

[ShunZu]

There are 6 unique parts of the AR15 that will make it an M16 (where they're different for full auto vs semi), for example. Auto sear, selector, heavy bolt, hammer, trigger, disconnector. If you're concerned about full auto parts, you simply should not own any of these. And if in doubt, or if it falls in the grey areas, don't own'em without the appropriate license. As has been said above, the media will paint you as being the next 911 terrorist even if it's only a selector. Better safe than sorry.

 

[CleverNickname]

Why is it that when a weapon becomes a "machine gun" all of the other NFA rules stop applying i.e. barrel length etc. but if you register a SBR under the NFA the other rules still apply i.e. an auto sear?

Because that's what the law says. A machine gun is defined as:

any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.

Note there is no mention of barrel length, overall length, whether the barrel must be rifled or smooth, the maximum bore diameter or anything else beyond the fact that it can shoot more than one shot per trigger pull.

Now the definition of a short barreled rifle:

(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;

and

(c) Rifle
The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.

 

[DMF]

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

As I've said MANY, MANY, times before, and provided citations to explain, constructive possession has NOTHING to do with being able to construct an item. Constructive possession relates to excercising dominion and control over an item, but not actually having the item in your physical possession. For example, when your car keys are in your pocket you physically possess those keys, however, when you set them on the kitchen counter and go sit in the living room to read your mail and watch TV, you still possess those keys because you intend to exercise dominion and control over those keys despite the fact that they are not actually in your physical possession at that time. When those keys are on the kitchen counter you have "constructive possession" of the keys. It has nothing to do with ability or intent to make a set of keys.

I sure wish people would learn the facts about the topics they wish to spout off about.

Also, as I've explained before the issue of parts for a machinegun, silencer, and/or destructive device becomes important because of how Congress defined those items in the law.

Congress decided the definitions of machineguns, silencers, and destructive devices included a collection of parts, and parts intended solely for making the firearm:

Definition of a silencer: 18USC921(a)(24) "The terms "firearm silencer" and "firearm muffler" mean any
device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a
portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or
redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a
firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for
use in such assembly or fabrication."

Definition of a machinegun: 26USC5845(b) "The term "machinegun" means any weapon which shoots, is designed
to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more
than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of
the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of
any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and
exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use
in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of
parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in
the possession or under the control of a person."

Definition of a destructive device: 26USC5845(f) The term "destructive device" means (1) any explosive,
incendiary, or poison gas (A) bomb, (B) grenade, (C) rocket having
a propellent charge of more than four ounces, (D) missile having an
explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (E)
mine, or (F) similar device; (2) any type of weapon by whatever
name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel
a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the
barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch
in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary
finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting
purposes; and (3) any combination of parts either designed or
intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device
as defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a
destructive device may be readily assembled. The term "destructive
device" shall not include any device which is neither designed nor
redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally
designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a
signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device;
surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the
Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686
of title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which
the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an
antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for
sporting purposes."

You see the part (and or parts) themselves are the machinegun, or silencer, or destructive device.

However, as I often say, please don't take my word for it. Please seek the advice of legal counsel that is competent in matters of applicable federal, state, and local firearms laws.